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Technical stop start

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Technical stop start

RobW said:
a release bearing should last the life of the clutch with no issue, it is designed to rotate (y)
when a clutch is replaced it is supplied as a 3 piece kit of friction plate, cover and release bearing, although some cheap garages will try to get away with just replacing the friction plate...

more and more these days the flywheel is also lifed and should be replaced along with the clutch

think of the clutch as the brake pads and the flywheel as the brake disc
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I don't necessarily disagree with that, BUT what I'm saying about the clutch release bearing is right, whilst the bearing is designed to have a sideways load on it (it has to so it can disengage the clutch), it's not advisable to keep that force on there for any longer than necessary. Far less wear on the bearing simply having the clutch with the pedal up and even moreso with a start&stop car which will have its engine off in neutral.

We all know that Fiat has designed certain parts a little cheaply. Why risk a clutch release bearing going before the clutch itself has gone and having the pay the labour to sort it? Simple really......
 
RobinPJ said:
Rob, just to be clear, are you saying that Maxi was wrong when he said this?
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its not a case of being right or wrong Robin, wear is a fact of life in all moving parts but some parts are designed to last the life of the car and others are lifed and will wear out in the process of their function

the linkage to the gear change, the clutch pedal, the gears themselves and as discussed the clutch mechanism all wear to some degree in their normal operation, but the friction plate is the item that wears out first.

i see no problem with holding the car in gear at the lights with the clutch disengaged ready to move off (y)
 
RobW said:
its not a case of being right or wrong Robin, wear is a fact of life in all moving parts but some parts are designed to last the life of the car and others are lifed and will wear out in the process of their function

the linkage to the gear change, the clutch pedal, the gears themselves and as discussed the clutch mechanism all wear to some degree in their normal operation, but the friction plate is the item that wears out first.

i see no problem with holding the car in gear at the lights with the clutch disengaged ready to move off (y)
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That's what I thought.

So the simple message is that chicaneuk is/was not doing anything significantly bad/wrong in driving in his usual driving style (which is, in my experience, how most people drive), even if he is not following "a counsel of perfection".

Maxi - care to apologise to chicaneuk or do you disagree with Rob?
 
RobW said:
modern cars are designed and endurance tested to cope with forceeable (mis)use and still last the design life which is typically 10 years.
it is in the manufacturers interest to engineer the car to exceed the warranty period without developing faults, and have an acceptable lifetime so that the reputation of the brand is good

Maxi you bang on as if you are the authority on all things autmotive but how much hands on time have you actually had with the oily bits? is all your knowledge from a text book?
my experience is both hands on and from a design and durability testing career so please consider that you might not know everything (y)
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I see what you mean :rolleyes:

That's why quite a few Panda's have had issues with the power steering unit which costs hundreds of pounds to fix, MOT failures on the bushes on dampers are common, droplink failures are common (even moreso on Bravo's which share droplinks with the 500 and are of course heavier), balljoints also go on Panda's when I know of lots of cars which do hundreds of thousands of km's and never need them replacing. Fiat do NOT design parts which have a life of 10 years across the whole life :ROFLMAO: My 500 has less than 30k miles on it and has needed 2 airboxes replacing, 2 of each breather pipe........ I'm sorry, but my dad has a Fiat 500f, a Peugeot 504, a Volvo 940, a Toyota Hiace and a Saab 900. NONE of which have ever needed something like an airbox replacing. They probably have a combined mileage of over a million miles and are a lot better built than most current Fiat's.

Perhaps the company you work for tests their products well (they seem to as knowing where you work, they're a reputable company), but Fiat don't for whatever reason.

At the end of the day I do have a bit of experience with oily stuff in cars, but owing to the fact that my parents drive with a lot of mechanical sympathy, my dad has never had to do a clutch on any of his cars even though he's done hundreds of thousands of miles in cars which are fairly old. Heck his van is 10 years old and has a shedload of mileage, but because he's owned it from new it's had virtually no issues other than genuine wear and tyre items.
 
RobinPJ said:
That's what I thought.

So the simple message is that chicaneuk is/was not doing anything significantly bad/wrong in driving in his usual driving style (which is, in my experience, how most people drive), even if he is not following "a counsel of perfection".

Maxi - care to apologise to chicaneuk or do you disagree with Rob?
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I disagree and disagree strongly :)

Here are jrkitching's thoughts on the matter.

jrkitching said:
2. If the clutch pedal is fully depressed then there shouldn't be any clutch drag & the only component subjected to extra wear will be the clutch release bearing. These can and do fail & it will be interesting to see how many high mileage S/S cars develop a rattle when the clutch is engaged.
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Like I said, just because everyone is doing it doesn't mean that it is right or advisable. The system Fiat have implemented is designed to limit the wear on all components and failure to operate it in the way which is was designed to operate will result in warning lights and extra wear on certain components :)
 
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306maxi said:
I see what you mean :rolleyes:

That's why quite a few Panda's have had issues with the power steering unit which costs hundreds of pounds to fix, MOT failures on the bushes on dampers are common, droplink failures are common (even moreso on Bravo's which share droplinks with the 500 and are of course heavier), balljoints also go on Panda's when I know of lots of cars which do hundreds of thousands of km's and never need them replacing. Fiat do NOT design parts which have a life of 10 years across the whole life :ROFLMAO: My 500 has less than 30k miles on it and has needed 2 airboxes replacing, 2 of each breather pipe........ I'm sorry, but my dad has a Fiat 500f, a Peugeot 504, a Volvo 940, a Toyota Hiace and a Saab 900. NONE of which have ever needed something like an airbox replacing. They probably have a combined mileage of over a million miles and are a lot better built than most current Fiat's.

Perhaps the company you work for tests their products well (they seem to as knowing where you work, they're a reputable company), but Fiat don't for whatever reason.

At the end of the day I do have a bit of experience with oily stuff in cars, but owing to the fact that my parents drive with a lot of mechanical sympathy, my dad has never had to do a clutch on any of his cars even though he's done hundreds of thousands of miles in cars which are fairly old. Heck his van is 10 years old and has a shedload of mileage, but because he's owned it from new it's had virtually no issues other than genuine wear and tyre items.
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i can't explain why some Fiat owners are unlucky with their cars, i have never had to replace a clutch on a car that i have owned from nearly new either, and even on cars that i track the brakes last for years

there is such a thing as mechanical sympathy but i have a Cinq Sporting track car that has been absolutely ragged to hell and back and nothing apart from normal lifed items has even gone kaput
recently it has been stored for a year, last week i reconnected the battery and it started first turn of the key and settled to a stable idle!

the New 500 was faultless apart from a (bosch) lambda sensor that failed due to some crap fuel

and my Alfa 156 was faultless apart from a (bosch) airflow meter - yes the stock suspension was 'fragile' but this was uprated and served me well (y)

and touch wood my Bravo is a brilliant car and drives like a new car with 55k on the clock

perhaps the explanation is poor or no servicing, Italian cars need love or they get hormonal :D
they also need a regular Italian tune-up!
 
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RobW said:
i can't explain why some Fiat owners are unlucky with their cars, i have never had to replace a clutch on a car that i have owned from nearly new either, and even on cars that i track the brakes last for years

there is such a thing as mechanical sympathy but i have a Cinq Sporting track car that has been absolutely ragged to hell and back and nothing apart from normal lifed items has even gone kaput
recently it has been stored for a year, last week i reconnected the battery and it started first turn of the key and settled to a stable idle!

the New 500 was faultless apart from a (bosch) lambda sensor that failed due to some crap fuel

and my Alfa 156 was faultless apart from a (bosch) airflow meter - yes the stock suspension was 'fragile' but this was uprated and served me well (y)

and touch wood my Bravo is a brilliant car and drives like a new car with 55k on the clock

perhaps the explanation is poor or no servicing, Italian cars need love or they get hormonal :D
they also need a regular Italian tune-up!
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Of course. I'm not trying to say that all Fiat bits are crap. I'd be very surprised if my 500 doesn't do a lot of miles (200k+) with nothing but regular maintenance and never needs anything major like a clutch or needs the engine opening up.

If you ask me, a clutch should last the life of the car other than if the car is having the nuts thrashed off it (a competition car running a standard clutch for example). If a clutch needs doing I think most times the issue will almost certainly be the way the car is driven or perhaps a failure of a seal resulting in a contaminated clutch. Stands to reason that you'd want to minimise the load on the clutch release bearing and hopefully send the car to the yard with its original clutch and associated gubbins.

All of which is a moot point when we consider that Fiat have designed S&S to be used in a certain way, most likely to minimise load on the crb and putting the clutch in needlessly and holding it there will result in a christmas light display on your dashboard and non-operation of S&S.

Someone needs to do one of those lolcats things to say "Moot cat likes moot pointz!!!!11111!!!1!!" :)
 
306maxi said:
Of course. I'm not trying to say that all Fiat bits are crap. I'd be very surprised if my 500 doesn't do a lot of miles (200k+) with nothing but regular maintenance and never needs anything major like a clutch or needs the engine opening up.

If you ask me, a clutch should last the life of the car other than if the car is having the nuts thrashed off it (a competition car running a standard clutch for example). If a clutch needs doing I think most times the issue will almost certainly be the way the car is driven or perhaps a failure of a seal resulting in a contaminated clutch. Stands to reason that you'd want to minimise the load on the clutch release bearing and hopefully send the car to the yard with its original clutch and associated gubbins.

All of which is a moot point when we consider that Fiat have designed S&S to be used in a certain way, most likely to minimise load on the crb and putting the clutch in needlessly and holding it there will result in a christmas light display on your dashboard and non-operation of S&S.

Someone needs to do one of those lolcats things to say "Moot cat likes moot pointz!!!!11111!!!1!!" :)
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i have my own concerns about the start and stop system, its just a loophole to get the emmissions down IMO, pointless complexity!
and if we are worried about wear think of the poor starter motor ;) not to mention the complex electronics...

i'm gonna hang on to my Bravo TJet for a few years, no silly S&S system and no silly diseasel DPF to block up!
 
No apology needed - I'm not going to take it personally :) 306Maxi clearly doesn't like to back down from an argument and neither do I.. I post on too many forums and know a lot of passionate people so know how it is!

Being objective I can see both sides of our arguments.. he rightly points out that the car is designed to be operated in a certain way and by holding the clutch down when at lights, I'm not operating the car as designed.

My counter argument being that lots of people do this, and given that the item which will suffer wear is a cheap part comparatively and will outlive friction parts anyway and would get replaced when they're replaced.. so my feeling is that the Stop / Start system is badly implemented in that respect. I would be interested to know how it works on other manufacturers cars.. e.g. BMW who I think have Stop / Start in some cars...
 
RobW said:
i have my own concerns about the start and stop system, its just a loophole to get the emmissions down IMO, pointless complexity!
and if we are worried about wear think of the poor starter motor ;) not to mention the complex electronics...

i'm gonna hang on to my Bravo TJet for a few years, no silly S&S system and no silly diseasel DPF to block up!
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Oh won't somebody PLEASE think of the children!?!?!?!?!?!?!

helen-lovejoy.jpg


What about those poor children who won't have polar caps in the future because of you? :p

IMO I don't think the extra starts will be that much of a problem because the car only does them when the engine is warm and warm starts aren't nearly as bad as cold starts for the starter. That's just pure opinion though :) Not something we've even got a choice about now anyway.

I'll agree to disagree with you on crb wear, but I think you should agree that if people wants S&S to work then they'll have to not keep the clutch pedal in.
 
chicaneuk said:
No apology needed - I'm not going to take it personally :) 306Maxi clearly doesn't like to back down from an argument and neither do I.. I post on too many forums and know a lot of passionate people so know how it is!

Being objective I can see both sides of our arguments.. he rightly points out that the car is designed to be operated in a certain way and by holding the clutch down when at lights, I'm not operating the car as designed.

My counter argument being that lots of people do this, and given that the item which will suffer wear is a cheap part comparatively and will outlive friction parts anyway and would get replaced when they're replaced.. so my feeling is that the Stop / Start system is badly implemented in that respect. I would be interested to know how it works on other manufacturers cars.. e.g. BMW who I think have Stop / Start in some cars...
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I agree with what you're saying :) I really do, it's not exactly the worst thing to do to your car, how much can a crb cost? But as you're a mechancially sympathetic driver I'm sure you'll want the least amount of wear possible on all parts of your car. Up until a couple of years ago, I never knew quite how bad dry steering was for your car and its tyres, now I don't do it unless I'm in a really tight spot. At the end of the day, we all do things to our cars which are probably not the best.
 
306maxi said:
Reading fail? :rolleyes:

I didn't say that putting the clutch in would wear the clutch, I said it would wear the CLUTCH RELEASE BEARING :bang:[/QUOTE

When the clutch is held down, the clutch release bearing is "operating" in the same way as any other mechanical item works as it is designed.
Do you not open the door 'cos it wears the hinge pins, or not switch on the wipers 'cos it wears out the blades.

I can't think of ever hearing of anyone suffering a worn out clutch release bearing - the part should outlast the clutch plate, regardless of how often (and for however long) it is used. It is routinely changed anyway when the clutch finally fails, but they're nor actually required - it is just the prudent thing to so.
Clutch in / clutch out, it's up to you. But never "ridden" of course!!
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Engineered said:
When the clutch is held down, the clutch release bearing is "operating" in the same way as any other mechanical item works as it is designed.
Do you not open the door 'cos it wears the hinge pins, or not switch on the wipers 'cos it wears out the blades.

I can't think of ever hearing of anyone suffering a worn out clutch release bearing - the part should outlast the clutch plate, regardless of how often (and for however long) it is used. It is routinely changed anyway when the clutch finally fails, but they're nor actually required - it is just the prudent thing to so.
Clutch in / clutch out, it's up to you. But never "ridden" of course!!
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Clutch in for an excessive amount of time = Christmas lights on the dash. If you want to do that then you'll have to accept that you will have warning lights illuminated on the dash and part of your car not operating as it should.

I don't quite get what the argument is. There are lot of things that you can do in your car that are not ideal yet your car will allow you to do. Just because you've stood at the lights in first with the clutch in for the whole of your driving career doesn't mean that it's right. Up until someone mentioned it on another forum I did it too.

Perhaps I'm different though, someone points out to me that I'm doing something which is harming my car and i turns out I'm right, I take notice and stop doing it. Seems to be a different "thought process" going on here :rolleyes:
 
306maxi said:
Clutch in for an excessive amount of time = Christmas lights on the dash. If you want to do that then you'll have to accept that you will have warning lights illuminated on the dash and part of your car not operating as it should.

I don't quite get what the argument is. There are lot of things that you can do in your car that are not ideal yet your car will allow you to do. Just because you've stood at the lights in first with the clutch in for the whole of your driving career doesn't mean that it's right. Up until someone mentioned it on another forum I did it too.

Perhaps I'm different though, someone points out to me that I'm doing something which is harming my car and i turns out I'm right, I take notice and stop doing it. Seems to be a different "thought process" going on here :rolleyes:
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It takes a certain arrogance to tell others how to drive.
I would never be so bold.
So you've read on another forum that it's very naughty to sit at the lights with the clutch down. So what?
If that's how people want to drive, then good for them. The manufacturers know that's how a large proportion of people drive - and the cars are designed to allow for this.
Aren't you worried that keeping pressing and releasing the clutch will wear out the pedal hinge pin?
 
Engineered said:
It takes a certain arrogance to tell others how to drive.
I would never be so bold.
So you've read on another forum that it's very naughty to sit at the lights with the clutch down. So what?
If that's how people want to drive, then good for them. The manufacturers know that's how a large proportion of people drive - and the cars are designed to allow for this.
Aren't you worried that keeping pressing and releasing the clutch will wear out the pedal hinge pin?
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It takes a certain level of idiocy and darwinism to intentionally drive a car in a way which will cause it to give you a warning light and report that one of the systems will not be functioning correctly for you.

The car is DESIGNED to present you with an error message (because you're operating the car in a way which they don't want you to. This has been confirmed by Fiat technicians who post on this forum.

Please don't be such an arrogant so and so and tell me not to ride my clutch btw. I will do whatever I want to do with MY car and if I want to ride the clutch I shall. See the obvious stupidity in that statement?
 
... I will do whatever I want to do with MY car and if I want to ride the clutch I shall.
[/QUOTE]

Good.
Then shut up (for a change) and let others do as they please.:)
 
Engineered said:
Good.
Then shut up (for a change) and let others do as they please.:)
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I never said you couldn't. I said you shouldn't and I posted reasons for it, I pointed out the fact that Fiat technicians say you shouldn't and that if I remember correctly the manual specifically advises you NOT to do it.

Go on, do the wrong thing with your car, it's yours to do with as you please, but stop trying to attack someone for giving out good advice which is backed up by the manufacturer and trained technicians :bang:

You've obviously got your tights in a twist about this so I suggest you get over it :) I won't be taking advice from someone who can't even quote a post properly :)
 
306maxi said:
I never said you couldn't. I said you shouldn't and I posted reasons for it, I pointed out the fact that Fiat technicians say you shouldn't and that if I remember correctly the manual specifically advises you NOT to do it.

Go on, do the wrong thing with your car, it's yours to do with as you please, but stop trying to attack someone for giving out good advice which is backed up by the manufacturer and trained technicians :bang:

You've obviously got your tights in a twist about this so I suggest you get over it :) I won't be taking advice from someone who can't even quote a post properly :)
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yawn...

You just don't know when to stop...
 
Engineered said:
yawn...

You just don't know when to stop...
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Why is there any need to stop? You're giving out advice which is not good advice and if you keep on posting I'll keep on posting. I'm not going to jump in your car and pull your foot off the pedal at the lights or anything, if you want to keep driving like that then fine, I'm just trying to help other people who might be a little more open minded and who might want to do the right thing, to do the right thing.
 
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