PEZZ175 said:

You've already stated categorically that you won't be getting a remap so don't you think it's best you left the issues of after-market tuning alone now.

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Anyone who is unsure about getting a remap will surely want to know the answers to questions like these tho.

N550SHP may even be able to answer them with such undeniable facts that Nouvo himself may be converted.
The purpose of FF is for the sharing of information and ideas, be it by asking questions or debate.

PEZZ175 said:

I think this is a good point. But how can a dealer tech justify driving your car fast on a test run?

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Sorry if this is OT and a week late - but I had a receipt for my marea 2.4JTD from a dealer investigating why the car wouldn't accelerate above 90mph.. A part was changed and test drove was ok... no comment of how far beyond 90mph they took it before they decided it was fixed

PEZZ175 said:

I would suggest that you get your facts right first nuovapanda

You've already stated categorically that you won't be getting a remap so don't you think it's best you left the issues of after-market tuning alone now. No need to stress yourself for no reason is there

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I apologise for pointing out to other members the fact that Fiat reduced the torque for the 500/Panda, but an independant tuning firm see fit to then increase that figure by nearly 40% and claim no ill affects.
OK I got lbs and nm mixed up but its still a 40% increase in torque, Im sure that will be detrimental in the long term, and Im not at all stressed by it, just being helpful.
In future Ill not pass any of my helpful comments on to 500 owners

nuovapanda you stick to your guns what youve pointed out is valid.
I re-mapped my Saab from 280Nm to 378Nm using a BSR module. This torque was still lower than the same gearbox in the Aero version and the engine was basically the same to. I would be happy to remap the 500 if there was already a version with higher torque on the market or if Fiat offer a tuning house and maintain the warranty. Saab offers Hirsch as a dealer option and they go like stink.

nuovapanda said:

Your site quotes this....

+25bhp
+40Lb ft / 55Nm
+2-4mpg improvement
Huge improvement in turbo response
Thousands of miles of testing in our own car

40lbs of extra torque is a big increase on 106lbs.... if Fiat think its a bad idea then how do you reason its not. 4000 miles wont show up longer term gearbox problems will it?

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I tried to word it so it wasn't a dig at you as it wasn't, but we needed to sing from the same sheet .

155lb ft on a modern gearbox is nothing, seriously. They quote a limit on the gearbox to ensure that if it were used at maximum AND towed its maximum weight, fully loaded etc that it would still be as reliable as it would if it were one person and light shopping.

Again I re-iterate, no one is forcing anyone to have this done, if you have concerns about your individual case and requirements, talk to us or whoever you get to tune your car and I am sure that you will get solid advice from any good tuning company. You seem to think that we don't care about peoples cars or concerns (and I am not talking just about ourselves) - quite simply we are probably more passionate about the cars than the owners as its why we run these businesses and believe me, we do not want owners coming back and complaining about x or y breaking on their car so we do our utmost with testing and knowledge so this doesn’t occur.

The gearbox on the Doblo 1.3MJ has been hammered for 86K+ without an issue, if there was a testimony to the reliability of the 1.3 and gearbox then this is surely it lol!

We have done 7,800 miles of HARD testing, demo drives, 0-80 sprints etc, its all this car has been used for and hasn't had any issues, even with journalists driving it .

Thanks for that info, does the Doblo have the same box as the Panda/500 or the Grande Punto though? Obviously, anyone would love an extra 25bhp and 40lbs of torque and an improved mpg for only £249... me included! Im just an old sceptic at heart and feel theres no gain without pain with such dramatic increases.
I see the Doblo has an 85bhp 1.3 with loads of torque anyhow, so assume its a stronger box?
Im not having a dig at you either, just being cautious.
I might even buy one of your key covers

N500SHP said:

The brakes on the 1.3MJ are vented and more than adequate for a tuned version although we are of course working on upgrades..

@ J333EVO, Why don't we meet up on Sunday and you can drive our demo 1.3, then you can give an honest opinion having driven one. Everyone who has driven it has been blown away by it, including Auto Italia AND dealerships, it may not be your cup of tea, but don't knock it until you have tried it.

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Hi Nigel,

Only just read this, I would take you up on your offer as would give me good bench mark in which to compare it to Emma's dad's 1.4 500 (or in fact even Emma's Sei 1.4 16V 6 speed though bit unfair as it does have way over 100bhp and a weight advantage) when it arrives next month, but I work shift patterns & consequently work weekends, that includes this weekend. :bang:

I'm not knocking anything, I think I have been very constructive in what I have said, that mapping can provide some real performance benefits, but NO tuning company can ever replicate the long term durability cycles car manufacturers go through, so people have to be aware of any downsides, especially on a new car inside manufacturers warranty periods. I have modified every single car I have owned, so it would be hypocritical of me to say never do it, but I know that once you work on one area there is always a knock on effect elsewhere as you normally expose a weakness that wasn't apparent before, brakes and suspension are normally cruelly exposed as soon as you get more power.

Referring back to the Sei 1.4 16V we built, we have upgraded the front brakes to 257mm vented from 240mm, and the rears from drums to 240mm solid discs and the brakes now are brilliant, before I'd say they were adequate for normal driving, but sadly lacking in anything approaching spirited driving. And that car weighs some 200kgs less than a 500. The real differance in brakes come to surface area, so if vented or not a 240mm disc is not going to offer as much stopping power as 257, and a drum will overheat very quickly unlike a disc, so on the diesel you get less power at front and then the rear will fade quicker due to inherent inability of drums to shed heat, putting more pressure on front to stop car and then they will overheat and fade as well. The 1.4 which is quicker out the box then diesel gets bigger brakes because Fiat deemed that the lesser set up was not good enough, otherwise it would have been cheaper & easier on purchasing/assembly side to keep every model the same.

All in I think the 500's will have a very well facilitated future in terms of tuning from aftermarket companies, maybe even as big as the MINI which is huge in terms of tuning as they have made in pretty big in USA now as well, and my friend has one doing 11sec 1/4 mile, so the 500 has some catching up to do but I'm sure many will have fun trying

J333EVO said:

Referring back to the Sei 1.4 16V we built, we have upgraded the front brakes to 257mm vented from 240mm, and the rears from drums to 240mm solid discs and the brakes now are brilliant,

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Thanks for that J333EVO.
I saw the Sei at Eurofest at Castle Combe in the summer. Was right next to it on the parade lap when it opened the throttle on a short straight. I'd put my foot down a split second before and couldn't belive it when I saw it was catching me before we had to slow down again!

J333EVO said:

...unless you change the turbo to a smaller one ...

On a small engine like the 1.3, it just doesn't have the lungs to fill the turbo quickly enough, so lag will always be present, this is fundemental on any small turbo engine.

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I'm not so sure to be honest - the turbo on the 1.3 is tiny (about the size of a walnut). The lag is due to the time taken to spin up, and can still occur on larger engined cars too. I think that on the diesels there's some lag, but because of the large amount of low down torque, you get used to driving it at engine speeds that are lower than what is required for the turbo to be effective (<1500rpm).

J333EVO said:

Hi Nigel,

Only just read this, I would take you up on your offer as would give me good bench mark in which to compare it to Emma's dad's 1.4 500 (or in fact even Emma's Sei 1.4 16V 6 speed though bit unfair as it does have way over 100bhp and a weight advantage) when it arrives next month, but I work shift patterns & consequently work weekends, that includes this weekend. :bang:

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No worries, we are not far away, if you are off anytime, evening etc, give us a call and I will pop over (any excuse to go for a drive and chat to like minded people )

We should have our new 1.2 in the next few weeks and I may be able to bring a standard 1.3 as well so we could have a side by side comparison and a small gathering

The offer of a demo in our 1.3 or 1.2 when it arrives is open to anyone of course. Watch out for the next Auto Italia as they have done a second article on it after the initial one in issue 139.

We do understand peoples concerns about what could happen to their cars long term, and beleive me so do we. (the Doblo was orignally the bottom spec 75, the gearbox is made of the same materials to a similar spec, they are not going to reduce the build quality on a component). But do respect that we (as do other tuning companies) understand tolerances, power delivery and limitations and we all have huge experience of adding power to thousands of vehicles over the years. Most tuning companies talk to each other too and share experience and idea's although we are in competition, so the knowledge base is vast - quite simply if there was an issue with doing something none of us would do it as WE don't want problems either!

If I can build, fit and map my own ecu and get it runnign to a pretty good performance, I'm sure tuning companies working off the massive development of the OEM ECU maps will have no problems.

The limits of various components are often massivly overspec'd and so of course there room for improvment.

My biggest worry with a remap under warranty, is that they reflash the relevant ECU and wipe out the map! Is this a possibility N500SHP and is there a way to backup the improved map and have it reprogrammed by yourselves for a nominal fee if it does happen?

Kristian

Wasnt it easier when you just took the head off, polished and ported everything, fitted a big fat carb and raised the compression? OK, you got maybe 5 bhp if lucky but you felt good about it!

kritip said:

If I can build, fit and map my own ecu and get it runnign to a pretty good performance, I'm sure tuning companies working off the massive development of the OEM ECU maps will have no problems.

The limits of various components are often massivly overspec'd and so of course there room for improvment.

My biggest worry with a remap under warranty, is that they reflash the relevant ECU and wipe out the map! Is this a possibility N500SHP and is there a way to backup the improved map and have it reprogrammed by yourselves for a nominal fee if it does happen?

Kristian

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In most cases tuning companies keep a back-up of the original and modified data specific to your car and should install the remap again free of charge if its wiped. Not so sure if it's the case with mobile services

I think there are divided sub-sets of data stored within your main ECU that are flashed independently related to a given problem. The one that is updated with a remap is fuel specific and is unlikely to be reset. Others such as the body computer maybe more likely to have an update.

Could be wrong here but N500SHP will have a more comprehensive answer I'm sure

What sort of 0-60 times and impact on 60-80 do we have for the ECU Remap on a 1.3 M-Jet 500??

jetweed said:

What sort of 0-60 times and impact on 60-80 do we have for the ECU Remap on a 1.3 M-Jet 500??

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0-60 is 8.6s, not sure on the 60-80 as we didnt measure it to start with, but its where the biggest improvement is - like night and day!

You have been out in ours Jetweed... what did you think?

In answer to the reflash question, if it happens we remap back to modified FOC, standard practise. It mainly happens on new BMW's and Mercedes (is their software really not that good to start with hmmm), recalls on Vauxhalls with DPF's (usually Zafiar CDTi and Signum's) and the odd Citroen (usually C4's) in the main rather than Fiat group cars.

0-60 in 8.6 from a 1.3?!

If that's right then I'll have to be having words with my lardy Bravo given it's about that but with another 600cc! That would be impressive.

Is that 0-60mph with just the remap or with the Exhaust ; Suspension and Airsystem induction thingy aswell as the remap?

If so whats it likely to be with just the remap?

Cos I'm still concerned what impact the change of suspension ; exhaust and Airsystem will have on insurance? Also would all that be crazy if you have ordered the 15" wheels?!

I'm really confused! Someone slap me please..Bravo or 500?!

And after the remap it'll add 25bhp to make it 100bhp?

What do the extras add individually?

Could I ask - pease don't be offended but would that 0-60 be measured the same as a normal 0-60 quoted by manufacturers? As in an everyday 0-60 as oppsoe to guns all blazing rev the balls off it?
I'm obviously blatently naieve on these matters, so any assistance in this would be gratefully be appreciated.. I apologise for pestering but I'm trying to make sense of the predicament I'm in.. I don't want to buy a car that I'll be bored of and yearning for more power in a few months time...

I really do like the 500 - I think its an awesome little car, beautiful, well built so much going for it (Winning all the awards and passing the criteria for 6 stars NCAP) and its really cool to be such a close pastiche of the original.