General Tool Kit
- Thread starter David Britton
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General Tool Kit
^^^ The tool on the left appears to be for wheel removal and refitting, i.e. it's a wheel wrench (=lug wrench in U.S.A.)
The tool on the right appears to be for removing/refitting spark plugs i.e. it's a spark plug spanner (= plug wrench in U.S.A.).
Neither is original to older Fiats but are quite suitable to use. (the spark plug spanner is probably better than the genuine Fiat one).
There's no need to have the tapered drift (bar) for use with the original Fiat spark plug spanner, any suitable length of bar, even a screwdriver, will do.
Many people prefer to use suitably sized sockets from a socket set when working on older Fiats - the original toolkit tools were really only designed for use in an emergency e.g. a roadside breakdown (they're not very good quality), don't fit very well and the spanners (wrenches) are only the open-end type rather than the superior ring or socket type which generally won't slip on tight fasteners.
Al.
The tool on the right appears to be for removing/refitting spark plugs i.e. it's a spark plug spanner (= plug wrench in U.S.A.).
Neither is original to older Fiats but are quite suitable to use. (the spark plug spanner is probably better than the genuine Fiat one).
There's no need to have the tapered drift (bar) for use with the original Fiat spark plug spanner, any suitable length of bar, even a screwdriver, will do.
Many people prefer to use suitably sized sockets from a socket set when working on older Fiats - the original toolkit tools were really only designed for use in an emergency e.g. a roadside breakdown (they're not very good quality), don't fit very well and the spanners (wrenches) are only the open-end type rather than the superior ring or socket type which generally won't slip on tight fasteners.
Al.
Save your money Ginnie, what Al's F123C saying, which I can back up, is that the tool on the right is hard to beat for removing the plugs. I have a similar vintage item which I bought new in 1983 for my first Fiat 500. It should have a rubber bung inside which grips on the porcelain of the plug allowing you to withdraw it from the cowling. On mine the rubber is decaying through age and I've considered making a new one or adapting one out of a new socket or an appropriate grommet or similar item.
Tips for this:
Hold your breath whilst removing or replacing the plugs...it does help.
When replacing you can make a loosleyish fit of the extender for the plug lead to the plug and get it started on the threads without obscuring what you are doing with your fingers.
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the tool on the right is hard to beat for removing the plugs. I have a similar vintage item which I bought new in 1983 for my first Fiat 500. It should have a rubber bung inside which grips on the porcelain of the plug allowing you to withdraw it from the cowling. On mine the rubber is decaying through age and I've considered making a new one or adapting one out of a new socket or an appropriate grommet or similar item.
Tips for this:
Hold your breath whilst removing or replacing the plugs...it does help.
When replacing you can make a loosleyish fit of the extender for the plug lead to the plug and get it started on the threads without obscuring what you are doing with your fingers.
Hi Peter, Lidl occasionally have this type of spark plug spanner for Euro5.99, but I'm not sure if theirs is 21 or 16mm (I vaguely recall it's for 16mm plugs).
As regards making up a new rubber insert - have you considered using the rubber boot from car spark plug leads that seals the lead to the plug insulator? this usually grips the plug insulator quite well, sometimes too well!
You could possibly secure this in place inside your plug spanner using some adhesive or maybe polyurethane/silicone sealer?
Good tip about using the plug extender (for Ginnie's possible benefit - this is the bit that fits between the plug lead and spark plug) when installing plugs.
The traditional tip was to use a short length of heater hose or garden hosepipe.
Peter, have you seen (below) this type of spark plug wrench, it was for VW Beetles, (made by Dowidat, No. 47 VW, the VW jack handle could be used as a T-bar) back in the day
As you can hopefully see, it had 2 spring clips to grip the spark plug body just below the hexagon, the other end fitted the wheel bolts (nuts?).Al.
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Hi Ginnie,
As Peter (fiat500) has already said, the type of spark plug spanner you showed is fine for use, so need to buy another. You can use either the one you've shown or the one from the Fiat toolkit, whichever you're most comfortable with.
Don't be nervous about removing spark plugs, they're usually not terribly tight.
Peter gave a good tip about refitting the spark plugs, i.e. use the plug extender (that's the approx. 3in. (75mm) long bit that fits between the plug lead and the plug top) to aid in getting the spark plugs started in the threads in the cylinder head, it can be a little fiddly as the plugs holes are down inside the engine cooling sheet metal cowlings. You could alternatively use a short length of rubber or garden hose. The important thing is to gently start the spark plugs in their threads to avoid cross-threading them. If they go tight in the first couple of turns, remove them to see why - don't try to force them in using the spark plug spanner.
You don't say if you have any manuals or books on the Fiat 500? If you haven't, there's both an Owners Instruction Manual and a Workshop Manual available to download free - just click on the Downloads section (see blue band at top of page), scroll down and select which you want. Spark plugs are covered in both, but not very well as there's no pics. Perhaps I should mention to ignore the manuals advice to :-
(a) have the spark plugs sand-blasted (not done nowadays, would be hard to find a garage with this old equipment)
(b) to set the spark plug gap to 0.023 in. - it should be 0.025 in.
(c) to clean the plugs with petrol and dry them using compressed air (not necessary unless oily).
If you post pics of the tips of your spark plugs when removed, we can 'read' them. (as in, tell you how your engine is running, especially fuelling).
If you're in any doubt or run into difficulty, just post a query and we'll try to help.
Al.
Hi everyone, thanks for the advice. I can now state that I have successfully checked both my plugs albeit using both of the tools to get a feel for which I liked to use more. Both had their advantages for each I must say, so I was pleased to have the selection. Getting the rear plug back into place is rather tricky mind (lol). Finally got there.
My little car wasn't starting so I thought it was to do with the ignition and that the spark plugs were wet after a brief start a few weeks back. I later noticed that the carb was rocking quite a bit and so air was getting in. Needless to say, once that was all tightened she started in a flash and I managed to take her for her first season spin.
My mechanic is in self isolation so I thought this was the opportune moment to up-skill in Fiat 500 (basic) mechanics.
Thanks for the tips and patience with a newbie.
My little car wasn't starting so I thought it was to do with the ignition and that the spark plugs were wet after a brief start a few weeks back. I later noticed that the carb was rocking quite a bit and so air was getting in. Needless to say, once that was all tightened she started in a flash and I managed to take her for her first season spin.
My mechanic is in self isolation so I thought this was the opportune moment to up-skill in Fiat 500 (basic) mechanics.
Thanks for the tips and patience with a newbie.
lazylobster
Established member
Glad it's sorted. Now, post a picture of your beast please!
R
R
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My little car wasn't starting so I thought it was to do with the ignition and that the spark plugs were wet after a brief start a few weeks back. I later noticed that the carb was rocking quite a bit and so air was getting in. Needless to say, once that was all tightened she started in a flash and I managed to take her for her first season spin.
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Hi Ginnie,
I know you solved the problem by tightening the carb but if you experience carb flooding at any point in the future causing the spark plugs to become wet with fuel and therefore preventing the engine from starting, here's a tip you might try to avoid having to remove the plugs:-
Turn on the ignition, disengage the choke (if you've been using it), press the accelerator pedal to the floor and hold it there, don't pump it, turn the engine over using the starter lever - there's a very good chance that this will get the engine started (assuming there's nothing else wrong with the engine). Explanation:- holding the accelerator pedal to the floor, stops more fuel being drawn into the flooded engine, allowing the engine to start on the fuel already present in the cylinders.
An alternative would be to walk away for an hour or more, it's likely the plugs will dry themselves out due to normal evaporation anyway, given a little time. Breakdown services often encounter this on classic cars, by the time they arrive, the plugs have dried themselves out and the engine 'magically' starts fine.
If you think that the engine has flooded and wet the plugs, there's no need to remove them to check - just open the engine lid, if you smell petrol, it's likely the engine has been flooded.
^^ This is all part of the 'fun' of running a classic car.
P.S. Correction to my post #46 , I meant to say 'so no need to buy another. Sorry if I caused any confusion.
Regards,
Al.
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Hi Al,
Great to have an explanation! A mechanic friend had suggested I try the "no choke, accelerator down" start although did not fully explain how it would work. I had initially tried that, before taking a look at the spark plugs but alas no success. I'm just pleased that via inspecting the sparks I noticed the carb rocking so twigged it must be that. Hoping to take her for a spin later this week so will send pics soon. I'm sure there will be more posts and questions from me soon as I need to pick up mechanic tips in light of the current isolation regimes ;-)
Thanks everyone!
Great to have an explanation! A mechanic friend had suggested I try the "no choke, accelerator down" start although did not fully explain how it would work. I had initially tried that, before taking a look at the spark plugs but alas no success. I'm just pleased that via inspecting the sparks I noticed the carb rocking so twigged it must be that. Hoping to take her for a spin later this week so will send pics soon. I'm sure there will be more posts and questions from me soon as I need to pick up mechanic tips in light of the current isolation regimes ;-)
Thanks everyone!
lazylobster
Established member
Hi Al, you mentioned:
"Turn on the ignition, disengage the choke (if you've been using it), press the accelerator pedal to the floor and hold it there, don't pump it, turn the engine over using the starter lever - there's a very good chance that this will get the engine started (assuming there's nothing else wrong with the engine). Explanation:- holding the accelerator pedal to the floor, stops more fuel being drawn into the flooded engine, allowing the engine to start on the fuel already present in the cylinders."
But I'm confused by this, as when the engine is hot, the procedure is to floor the accelerator, engage starter and job done. I would have thought that flooring the accelerator would add the max amount of fuel / air ?
Confused.com
Rob
"Turn on the ignition, disengage the choke (if you've been using it), press the accelerator pedal to the floor and hold it there, don't pump it, turn the engine over using the starter lever - there's a very good chance that this will get the engine started (assuming there's nothing else wrong with the engine). Explanation:- holding the accelerator pedal to the floor, stops more fuel being drawn into the flooded engine, allowing the engine to start on the fuel already present in the cylinders."
But I'm confused by this, as when the engine is hot, the procedure is to floor the accelerator, engage starter and job done. I would have thought that flooring the accelerator would add the max amount of fuel / air ?
Confused.com
Rob
Hi Rob,
Thanks for the Confused dot com link, I just got side-tracked and wasted time looking through an insurance comparison website that doesn't even operate in Ireland....
The explanation I gave was primarily for starting a cold engine that has flooded, which is why I said to disengage the choke.
The requirements of a cold engine, fuel-wise, is for a very rich mixture - this is achieved by either restricting the amount of air entering the engine (i.e. by using a choke flap) or increasing the amount of fuel going in (i.e. by using a 'fuel enrichment device' as on the Fiat 500).
The reason a rich mixture is required is because some of the fuel doesn't become atomised properly due to being in contact with cold surfaces on it's way into the engine.
It can actually be quite difficult to ignite petrol unless it can mix with sufficient oxygen (contained in the air). If petrol is atomised on it's way into the engine, the molecules of petrol are surrounded by molecules of oxygen and can be easily ignited.
Starting a hot engine is a little different - a normal air fuel-ratio will suffice, i.e. 14.7:1, by weight not volume. You don't want too much fuel to be drawn into the engine, or it may cause flooding, i.e. a mixture too rich to be ignited, resulting in the spark plugs getting wet with fuel and then being unable to spark.
The problem is when a hot engine is switched off, heat soak can occur, causing the fuel level in the carb float chamber/s to rise (fuel when heated will expand) and run down into the inlet manifold/tracts - so there is likely to already be some fuel on it's way into the engine, you don't want to add more. Some inlet manifolds have a drain tube with a small orifice to try to drain this fuel away.
By opening the throttle (pressing the accelerator to the floor) you 'kill' the depression in the carb, preventing fuel being sucked out of any of the fuel orifices (idle, progression or main jet circuit), while the engine is being spun over at normal starter motor speed..
Opening the throttle, on a carb. fitted with an 'accelerator pump jet circuit' will squirt a measured amount of fuel into the carb and this will be drawn into the engine - this fuel will be easily vaporised due to the heat of the engine. This, plus any that has gone in due to heat soak, will be sufficient to start the engine.
Of course, if you 'pump the accelerator pedal', you will be injecting more fuel with each pump of the pedal - this may result in flooding of the engine.
Your thinking that flooring the accelerator would add the max. amount of fuel/air?
When the accelerator is pressed to the floor (throttle fully opened), air can still be drawn in. The rate at which the air can speed up depends on the sucking power of the engine, this is not great at starter motor speeds (maybe 300rpm?). But, for fuel to be drawn from the holes/jets, there has to a depression (vacuum) across those holes/jets. Low air speed = low or no depression. No depression = no fuel flow. Holding the throttle fully open , virtually kills any depression across the fuel holes/main jet orifice, stopping fuel flow. But when the engine starts, the speed of the air going in increases, the depression across the fuel holes increases, resulting in fuel now being drawn in. Now, if you open the throttle fully, max air and FUEL can be drawn into the engine.
Also bear in mind, that fuel has more inertia than air, so takes more time to speed up - this is why an accelerator pump jet circuit is fitted to most carbs
(some Fiat 500 model carbs don't have any), to provide temporary fuel enrichment on engine acceleration, so that the engine doesn't bog-down when the throttle is suddenly opened (air flow increases immediately, fuel flow lags behind).
Most of the above problems were eradicated by the arrival of fuel injection, no carb to flood, fuel injected directly into the airstream (or indeed the cylinders), so no lag, no flat-spots etc.
Hth,
Al.
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lazylobster
Established member
Morning Al and many thanks for the verbose explanation. I am now enlightened. My error for not understanding it was for a cold engine.
Apologies for the mis-direct to confused.com, over in London, where I'm trying hard to "hang wit da kidz" it's a saying used to demonstrate that a person is, well, confused
My best
Rob
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Hi All, as promised here is a pic of my little beast Celeste. She has been in the family since 1973, owned by my aunt and then my cousin would drive it to and from Uni in Padova. A number of years ago I drove her over to the UK to take up residency here. She's enjoying the good weather at the moment.
Have a great weekend! Ginnie
Have a great weekend! Ginnie
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Another question regarding 'Toolkit' heading.
I will not be fitting the original toolkit in The Beast when I've finished tinkering
What have people put in their modern toolkits to get them out of trouble. I'm assuming the same as old but in a roll. What is the must have tool in the kit ?
I'm just trying to compile the best based on collective experience.
Many thanks
David
I will not be fitting the original toolkit in The Beast when I've finished tinkering
What have people put in their modern toolkits to get them out of trouble. I'm assuming the same as old but in a roll. What is the must have tool in the kit ?
I'm just trying to compile the best based on collective experience.
Many thanks
David
the hobbler
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I have a (complete, in its little grey box!) original tool kit, but it is not really suitable as a 'can do most repairs' type tool-kit. I have a tool roll and in it is a selection of spanners (8 +10+ 13+17-open and combination + a few odd ones) selection of screwdrivers (phillips and 3 different 'flat' sizes), plug-spanner, tappet-adjuster (old Fiat tool--now VERY rare) pliers, side-cutters, insulation tape, a selection of cable-ties (very useful) and spare fuses. I have an old Mercedes-Benz wheel brace (from my 'time' with M/benz) which is perfect for doing up/undoing wheel bolts, a speed-brace with a 17mm socket (wheel-bolt size) and a wheel off/on bolt. This is a tool that when you have removed the first wheel bolt you replace that wheel-bolt with it--you then take of all the other wheel-bolts and remove wheel. When you come to refit the wheel you have something in place to align the wheel onto, and when you have got a couple of bolts started you can remove the tool. This is particularly useful when you are removeing/refitting rear wheels. Because they tuck under the car so much, it can be very difficult to align the wheel with the bolt holes and get the 1st bolt started. Using this little tool, you have something to help you align the wheel with.
the hobbler
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I also have a small hydraulic jack in the front---I don't trust the jacking points on the car, even though they have been re-built. I have the other items that you suggested Al, just can't get them all into my tool roll.
^^
The items I mentioned might possibly be accommodated under the rear seat? (I can't remember if there's space there).When I was starting off, my 1st car was a 600 - bigger boot and more power
Regards,
Al.
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