F123C said:

Did the release bearing seize or become tight causing the bearing carrier to fail?

Al.

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Hi Al, no problems with the bearing, it seems that the thin metal carrier that retains the bearing on it's housing has broken allowing it to drop onto the shaft. I'll recheck the adjustment of the clutch cable when I put it back together.
Ian.

Greetings, having replaced the thrust bearing and checked the adjustment I set about getting the original 'Hot' engine back in to continue with running in and leak checks etc. I can report that the engine seems to be a little reluctant to start, but if I keep cranking it will start and run. I have put this down to a number of things - The Carb has not been cleaned since the last running period six months ago so it may be gummed up The engine is still quite 'tight' and with a CR of exactly 10.5:1 the starter motor may struggle somewhat. The cam overlap (40/80-80/40) may reduce the ability of the Solex twin choke to draw air in this state of tune. Once the engine is running and up to temperature it will not tick over smoothly below 1000rpm and only sounds healthy at some 1200rpm, but this is to be expected. The engine exhibits the normal 500/126 'wobble' when running until 2500rpm and then the change is dramatic with no movement at all unless revving hard and then only a mere small flick. The acceleration is very rapid with the revs climbing easily. A point of note is that the timing gear set exhibits a notable gear whine, but this may or may not reduce ar it is all run in.
I'll update after the next run then I'll drain the mineral 20w-50 and refill with 10w-60 for the running in.
Ian.

Greetings, I managed to get a good run today and although the weather was not as sunny as one would have hoped, I had my little jalopy out of the garage and set to cleaning whilst the engine ran up to temperature. The old mineral 20w 50 oil drop went as expected, I then took a little time to inspect the magnetic sump plug for debris............. a bit of carbon residue and one small (0.5 x 0.5mm) piece of ferrous. The oil looked clean too. So I'll allow it to drip overnight and then replace the spin-on filter and fresh Mobil 1 10w 60. I wonder if running in is classed as an 'essential' journey or not????:devil::devil::devil::devil:

Ian.

Use the 500 next time you need to go to the supermarket for ESSENTIAL shopping--simples!

the hobbler said:

Use the 500 next time you need to go to the supermarket for ESSENTIAL shopping--simples!

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You know what Tom? I might just do that.............and park well away from anyone else the're all nutters in Aldi around here
We here hope that you there are all well - stay safe
Ian.

Well, I thought that my clutch problem had gone away with the change of thrust bearing, But no!! It has not. The symptoms were a high pitch squeal when pressing down on the clutch pedal with the engine running, in fact just a slight pressure would cause the noise ???? The 'Hot' engine is now in use with all the new parts supplied for it. I think the initial problem was one of adjustment and bearing failure, involving the other engine. However, I am now using an expensive up-rated clutch and pressure plate that has been balanced as part of the build. What has struck me most is that the pressure plate has been found to be the incorrect item, the pics show the story, but suffice to say the bearing face that should contact the fingers of the pressure plate is so far out the bearing carrier is rubbing on the fingers instead I just did not notice, and given that it is all new and from MBG I assumed all was well..... Not! :bang::bang:
What sticks in the craw somewhat is that I am not in a position to get a replacement balanced as part of the engine
Anyone know what engine the pressure plate is for??????
Don't Assume - check!!!!
Ian.

Hi Ian,

Oh dear, sorry to hear of your latest mechanical misfortune

I wonder if in fact the pressure plate is correct as an uprated unit for your engine but you were supplied with an incorrect i.e. non-matching, release bearing?
(or maybe you just used a standard release bearing, thinking it was ok?)

I'm sure MBG will be able to tell you.

Chin up

Al.

Bleeding Knuckles said:

....... the pressure plate has been found to be the incorrect item,.......

Click to expand...

You must be a master of the engine-out procedure by now Ian!

That uprated plate looks might meaty and with those heavier "fingers" arranged in a much broader circle I imagine that it will take a proportionately large amount of force to disengage the clutch. Are there not consequences along the "supply chain"? For instance the bushes and fork of the actuator and the clutch cable being under more strain than designed?

You would think that suppliers of modified parts would anticipate every consequence of fitting a highly modified part, particularly one which is literally as central as the clutch.


Are you going for matched release bearing, (assuming such a thing will operate withing the bellhousing), or a standard or more standard clutch?

fiat500 said:

You must be a master of the engine-out procedure by now Ian!

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Yes Peter, I think I'm getting the hang of it now :bang::bang::bang:
I have attached a pic showing an original pressure plate and friction plate with the new (126???) pair. It was sold as an uprated 126 clutch set, but is clearly different in the centre fork area. I believe that it is from an 800 series engine, but I cannot be sure at this time - more research needed !!! It is exactly the same size and fits easily into the 126 bell housing and onto a 126 flywheel. I have noted that the friction plate is sintered. I checked the clutch assembly from my other engine for wear and found that the friction plate is quite worn, so, I've used the original pressure plate with the new friction plate - if you're still with me!!!:devil:
I have also checked that the thrust bearing contacts the fingers correctly.
I think that the wider 800 series thrust bearing would do the job, but I'm unsure if the fitting into the 126 gearbox is something that would work - more research needed!!!
After all the faffing around I have refitted the engine, after trying if I could rig up a system to statically balance the original pressure plate but I need a better balance for that. Keep safe out there
Ian.

Are you sure the pressure plate isn't already balanced? Years ago, I saw a video that showed them being produced and vaguely remember them getting balanced after assembly. Are there any balance holes or dimples anywhere on the cover or the (pressure) plate? I've often wondered about the perceived advice to balance the clutch assembly when balancing the crank etc. as the clutch disc will stop in different positions relative to the flywheel when in use. Also, what do you do when the clutch has to be renewed, strip and rebalance the crank?

Are you sure that 126 friction plate is actually sintered?
It looks like standard friction material to me, I thought sintered metal came in separate sections rivetted to the plate (like 'buttons' with spaces in between).

Re:- whether the pressure plate on the left (126) would need more force to operate? This might depend on (among other factors) where the fulcrum points are situated on the diaphragm spring?

Maybe you could fit one of these new-fangled concentric hydraulically-operated slave cylinders to your gearbox and use the new, 'slave-munching' pressure plate?

Just curious,

Al.

Greetings, I think that I may have sorted my clutch problem (maybe)
In my previous pics the two pressure plates are quite different, the one using a small thrust bearing being a 126 and the other seems to be that same as the 500F/L item. this being so I reckon I can use the F/L thrust bearing in the 126 assembly !!!!! The input shaft bushing that the bearing runs on is the same size for all. The left pic is F/L and the right is 126.
Ian.

Greetings, update on proceedings thus far. With the 'Hot' engine now in the car with a slight 'hybrid' of parts in the clutch department (old 126 pressure plate and new friction plate) The clutch works well now. I can start the running in - or maybe not unless I sneak around the local neighborhood trying not to make too much noise which is difficult given my straight through exhaust
However, the oil change is completed and a new UFI spin-on filter has been changed. At the moment I don't have any leaks from the previous crankshaft and pushrod tube area's, but I do have a slight weep from the Top of the timing case !!!!! I didn't have one there before so it's a mystery as the gasket was sound - I've tried the leak tweaker on the top bolt too, but it still weeps very slightly???? I have been in contact with TCM at MBG to sort out my incorrect parts and have been told that my 'incorrect' pressure plate is OE for the 600T and is made to take 80bhp, so if I can find a thrust bearing to fit it would be a damn good clutch. I await his reply - I'll post the result and if it's good news the only bad news is that the engine will eventually have to come out - AGAIN :bang::bang::bang: to swop the clutch!! These cars are such fun
Ian.

Help Needed folks, on the attached pic there are two lines both crossing the centre the bearing to measure A the inside diameter and B the outside diameter of the bearing contact face. Can anyone who has a 500 F/L with a spare bearing or the numbers, let me know these dimensions please???? Thanks in advance
Ian.

Greetings, Update on my clutch drama - I have received the 500F/L thrust bearing from MBG and it's a good fit I was concerned that the 500 bearing would not fit the 126 bearing hub in the bellhousing, but it does and the contact face of the bearing onto the 600T clutch is good too. So I can go ahead and fit my balanced Pressure plate at last - I've only got to remove the engine again But given that I cannot drive (much) I'll leave the 126 pressure plate in for the time being - until I get the urge to whip the motor out again that is :bang::bang::bang:
Ian.

I'm glad you sorted that Ian; I had just got round to measuring it too.:bang:

Hi Ian,

Looking at pic 1 in post #174 , it doesn't look to me to be a suitable release bearing to use - the bearing thrust face should contact the pressure plate release fingers inboard of their tips, i.e. where the tips have a slight bend.
(look at where the original bearing contacted the release fingers on the 126? p.plate, post #166 ).

What is the black contact ring on the latest release bearing made from? This release bearing reminds me of what was used on the earlier coil spring type pressure plate clutches.

Are there any maker's markings/numbers on the pressure plate which could be used to positively identify what it was designed to fit, determining this should then allow the correct release bearing to be identified.

When I worked at a Co. that relined brake shoes/ rebuilt clutch pressure plates/discs (summer job in the 1970's), they had catalogues detailing all parts, part numbers and dimensions (to identify the correct rebuild parts). Maybe try consulting a specialist Co. that rebuilds classic car clutches for advice?

I did try looking up INA, Fag, SKF bearings websites to try to get you the release bearing dimensions you were looking for earlier but was unable to do so without a bearing no.

In order to avoid further disappointment, I would urge you to continue looking for a release bearing compatible with your new pressure plate as I don't think what you intend using will be satisfactory.

Regards,

Al.

F123C said:

Hi Ian,
In order to avoid further disappointment, I would urge you to continue looking for a release bearing compatible with your new pressure plate as I don't think what you intend using will be satisfactory.

Regards,

Al.

Click to expand...

Hi Al, Thanks for the note of caution - appreciated. My problem is that the fingers on the pressure plate have a pronounced bend at the contact area, so the contact between the bearing and fingers would be limited anyway. The material of the bearing face is steel. The process of pressing the bearing against the fingers is going to compress the area between the fingers somewhat and at the same time the fingers would move across the bearing face towards the middle slightly, the further the fingers are pushed the closer they would get to a certain point. I have researched other providers and found what looks like this bearing and pressure plate sold together, also I have canvassed opinion at MBG and am happy with the fitting, but as always the proof of the pudding is................. I will get back and report on this fitting as soon as I can.
Ian.

Hi Ian,

If you happen to have a spare flywheel and clutch disc, you might try bolting the 'new' pressure plate to them. I think you'll then find that the p/plate fingers sit almost flat, and you can then get another perspective on whether the 'new' (latest) release bearing will suit.

Here's hoping

Al.

F123C said:

Hi Ian,

If you happen to have a spare flywheel and clutch disc, you might try bolting the 'new' pressure plate to them. I think you'll then find that the p/plate fingers sit almost flat, and you can then get another perspective on whether the 'new' (latest) release bearing will suit.

Here's hoping

Al.

Click to expand...

Hi Al, I've had a dig out and found an old friction plate that seems to be 126, but when offered up to the 600T pressure plate I found that the central hub of the friction plate is too wide to fit into the pressure plate In fact the prior comparison at #169 does show the small difference. So it seems that only the 500F/L - 600T friction plate size will do
I'll have to wait until the engine comes out to see what the perspective vis pressure plate and thrust bearing will be :bang::bang::bang:
Ian.

Greetings, I decided to give the car a run today, but then (whilst looking into the engine bay) decided the I really did not like the way the choke cable ran it's tortuous route around to the carb So, methinks I'll change the disc starter around with other parts I have to change the direction of choke operation.
Don't get me wrong here, the choke works fine, but the cable has a tight bend in it and this makes for a stiff operation - you can see what is happening, you look at the car and notice something you don't like, so you've just got to fix it - like having an itch - it's just got to be scratched
Well, happily it all came apart and went back together fine. I started the car and found that the operation of the new disc starter is much less difficult and it gives lower revs when full on. I will say that the new(er) starter is an off - on device, whereas the old(er) one was progressive from off to full on. I just have to adopt a slightly different procedure when starting is all. Also in preparation for post running-in rolling road testing I've managed (after a long search) to find a pair of 47.5 Idle jets which should help with the fine tuning. The pics show the before and after set up on the carb fittings and the subtle differences in the disc starters.
Ian.