I was wondering if there was a best way of having a detailed repository of methods, best practice etc for restoring a 500.

If there is sufficient interest, it would be good to understand the best way to host pictures (I know sites like photobucket have stopped 3rd party hosting for free accounts) and how to detail each stage clearly without confusion.

Perhaps a discussion amongst experienced folk about what are the best approaches along with options.

I am always fascinated by the techniques people use to do restoration and such....
and through searching various sites showing restorations etc I have encountered some amazing people... non of whom feel their work is worth of being in print...


The classic restoration shows that show more blab than restoration...
I think a thread showing such things would be good...


I know I have pointed people to Zinger Customs Jolly resto as well as Seans 500L Resto.... I encountered Peter (Fiat500) on another forum when I found his restoration thread...


So worth having a look at this thread for general panel making...
http://forum.retro-rides.org/thread/70135/panels


It would be really good to have an archive of specific rebuilds or restorations for different things on a 500, rather than trawling through many threads... but how to organize and manage this is not so easy...

I was thinking about something specifically 500. I've talked to restorers have a belief that the car will need to be restored again every 10 years. I have a problem with this given that classic cars only come out on high days and dry days - may 10 days per year. Whereas from new they were used in all kind of conditions 365 x 7.

I've pulled bodies apart that have previously been restored and found lots of problems / bodges. Panels welded over old panels, floor supports not refitted after sections have been put back in, door posts poorly welded and panels replaced with sheet steel without any pressings for strength.

I've also found quite a few problems with panels, that don't seem to fit too well (wings, rear quarters, front inner wheel housings), found other panels such as floor sections (left & rights) that just aren't the best approach. Pattern doors that don't fit and even door repair panels that are kind of useless.

There are questions such as where you can spot weld. Mig welding vs. mig brazing (corrosion probs with steel mig, heat distortion from non-synergetic migs). Chemical strip vs media blasting. Anti-corrosion products, protecting closed profiles that can't be accessed after fabrication such as inner / outer sills.

If enthusiasts were to get together and detail various solutions at each stage, it would be a reference for folk who are starting a 500 project without specific 500 experience.

Bigvtwin996 said:

It would be really good to have an archive of specific rebuilds or restorations for different things on a 500, rather than trawling through many threads... but how to organize and manage this is not so easy...

Click to expand...

Maybe we could get the administrator involved? Maybe he could organise a kind of wikki page?

Different members could discuss on a thread like this and agree to contribute specific elements (how to with pics etc).

A wikki page could be indexed and expanded to not only the body shell but also running gear, brakes, interior, engine & gearbox.

That's a great idea but very tricky to organise. The Forum already has a section where enthusiastic members can produce illustrated guides on specific processes. Sean Franko500 has already produced some PDF guides of the highest quality on a few matters. It might be a good idea if more people could share knowledge and experience in that way. But not many people are likely to have all the skills needed in order to produce such guides and there will always be dissent from people who have handy shortcuts and from those who do things by the book.
The great thing about restoration of vehicles in this country is that you can learn by experience; my earlier car restorations would not pass muster nowadays and despite my great efforts and attention to detail, I will never equal the standard of many professional and amateur restorers. It is possible that by being too prescriptive about the way things should be done we could deter or deflate some enthusiastic newcomers. But I do think that illustrated guides about setting the timing, oil maintenance procedures and other reasonably uncontroversial subjects would lend themselves to s group effort and would be well received by Fiat 500 owners.

Hi all,
back from sunny Croatia. Only saw 1 Fiat 600 model and that was it, so wont be moving there!

Restoration is a very involved process. And as mentioned earlier it can be very model specific and depending on the knowledge & experience of the person doing the restoration, the information required can really vary.

I really enjoy restoring anything that most people would throw away, and yet I would take hours, days, weeks or years to try and return it to its former glory or just being able to use it again.

Trying to record methods and details for restoration can be extremely timely and difficult. You always miss something that you did or find that the photos just don't show what you are trying to demonstrate.

I personally love the idea of recording new documents to show methods for certain procedures for the 500.
However these would need to be in a certain format and be checked before being published otherwise certain people would lay blame if something was to go wrong.
Personally I have never been a fan of the Haynes manuals. Despite that they are full of detail, they can be misleading in places. So an updated version would be beneficial.

I am a firm believer that everyone has their own opinions on how to do something and to what standard they feel is adequate. There is always more than one way to skin a cat - as the saying goes!
Restoration to a concourse standard is great, but it tends to lead to a lack of use due to not wanting to see their work deteriorate.
However most users and drivers of a Fiat 500 would probably appreciate more information on how to repair/maintain their vehicle to a high standard in terms of durability, strength and protect from the elements.
That's where Peter aka fiat500 is great as he has shown how to rebuild a 500 on a budget and yet really use it to the maximum. He also shows how new parts hold up to constant use.

Peter Bigvtwin996 has often mentioned about creating a new restoration manual for the 500 as between us we pretty much have most of the models available and could provide a lot more detail than the usual manuals to show the differences from the early prototypes through to the later models and even the modifications required to change to 126 engines, gearboxes, steering racks, brake conversions etc.

The only problem with using sites like this is that even if we had a thread for documents to be loaded, I can guarantee users will jump in with their own stories, issues and variations of the methods.

Franko500 said:

Hi all,
back from sunny Croatia. Only saw 1 Fiat 600 model and that was it, so wont be moving there!

Click to expand...

?
I'm still there and as well as a 600, which I also saw, there were several really cute 850s and a dilapidated, air-cooled 126, temptingly parked in a corner of the driveway on a little lane just a few metres from our apartment; many useful spares there. I'd love to live here but the roads are surprisingly good and would not be well suited to the little Fiat.
Back to the subject; I agree that there would always be disagreement but that's what's currently quite useful. A forum encourages strong views borne from experience, although I realise that some people find this confusing or intimidating. But I welcome the idea of more members making generous contributions and asserting their ideas as to how standard features of the 500s restoration and maintenance can be achieved.

fiat500 said:

my earlier car restorations would not pass muster nowadays and despite my great efforts and attention to detail, I will never equal the standard of many professional and amateur restorers.

Click to expand...

Sounds very similar to my experience. I always had engineering skills (I've built everything from tuned 500 & 126 engines to a full rebuild of a Landcruiser Amazon 4.2TD engine last year), but when it came to body work I always thought it was an artisan's job.

I ran a 500 classic parts business for a few years and got a fair knowledge of different panels and their problems, then I helped a real perfectionist on a 500 restore, a while back. Since then, I've unpicked panels on a couple of other cars done by another bodyshop and project managed the restore and been able to compare different approaches.

Based on what I have seen, plus research on different welding methods (spot welding vs steel wire mig welding vs mig brazing), different paints, weld through primers for ensuring that welded flanges aren't bare metal. There is definitely information available to assist folk to ask questions of perspective bodyshops, to chose methods and materials - To allow those who want real longevity in their restore.

fiat500 said:

?
A forum encourages strong views borne from experience, although I realise that some people find this confusing or intimidating. But I welcome the idea of more members making generous contributions and asserting their ideas as to how standard features of the 500s restoration and maintenance can be achieved.

Click to expand...

My view too!

Starter for 5...

When you unstitch old panels by drilling out the spot welds and teasing panels apart, you'll find rust on both flanges of the panels you separated (bare in mind that I am talking about factory spot welds). When I have removed panels like sills for example that have been replaced in the past, you also find that the 'closed profile' in other words, the inside of the panel that you can't paint after welding, was never painted at all and has the black transit paint that the panel was shipped with - this rots very quickly aided by the weld.

When you consider welding with steel wire in a mig, how long does it take the weld to rust in the open air? Now imagine this rust forming quickly inside the closed profile of the inner and outer sill (assuming that the panels are plug welded). The solution? A mixture of spot welding and mig brazing (which is done at a lower temperature apprx 1000 deg lower - which will burn off less weld through primer and distort less). The other part of the equation is to strip all replacement panels to bare metal, degrease, then coat in a weld-through primer such as Bilt Hamber (well known for use on oil platforms).

Other problems include poor fitting pattern panels and the order of works to resolve these issues. Although some of this information will be covered somewhere on a forum, so many topics and posts, make it very difficult to read and get all of the information together. A wikki page would be a solution, if folk are able to collaborate - share ideas offline, agree either one approach or a number of workable solutions to each problem.

The suppliers page which I think already exists could be kept up to date (I'm often referring folk to a machine shop for crank balancing etc and a panel making place for the few panels that aren't available) as part of a wiki page would be easy to find.

nathanrobo said:

........... The solution? A mixture of spot welding and mig brazing (which is done at a lower temperature apprx 1000 deg lower - which will burn off less weld through primer and distort less).

Click to expand...

Mig brazing is used in modern car construction and their design takes into account many things, modern shells are constructed using Boron Steel which is significantly stronger than the stuff 500s are made of and is tempered if normal welding is performed so weakens it... in the same was modern windscreens are also structural...
technically a Mig brazed repair on a 500 could be classed as a non manufacturer recommended repair..


I think if you want a 500 shell to be rustproof after serious restoration then there are many other processes that could be employed such as "e coating"..

Bigvtwin996 said:

Mig brazing is used in modern car construction and their design takes into account many things, modern shells are constructed using Boron Steel which is significantly stronger than the stuff 500s are made of and is tempered if normal welding is performed so weakens it... in the same was modern windscreens are also structural...
technically a Mig brazed repair on a 500 could be classed as a non manufacturer recommended repair..


I think if you want a 500 shell to be rustproof after serious restoration then there are many other processes that could be employed such as "e coating"..

Click to expand...

I wouldn't disagree with any of that. But would add that the reasons behind some of the approved repair procedures for modern cars, meet some of the same challenges faced with older cars. Fiat steel was of pretty poor quality, easy to burn through and easy to warp (although as far as I know a change in metallurgy isn't a problem welding Fiats). Modern manufacturers such as Honda and BMW cite, not wanting to compromise corrosion measures as one of the advantages of mig brazing. Talking to welding specialists, although mig brazing is conceptually different, it should be stronger than steel mig, due to the greater surface area with the capillary action that takes place. Brazing was also commonly found on cars from the 60's & 70's so I don't see a problem there. Are there manufacturer approved repairs for Fiat 500 that are that detailed? Given their wide use by contemporary manufacturers in the '60s & '70's such as Saab??

E - coating is certainly an option that should be considered and could be detailed on a proposed Wiki page. As far as I'm aware this involved acid dipping, with lots of views for and against. An approach that I've definitely considered in the past.

The main thing would be that in place of pages of technical argument. Members could be organised based on experience. Assess all options off-line and then detail them on the page.

It may well be that my experience is not sufficient to be involved a group of members that could take this forward. But the idea, the concept, would be of real merit if folk could cooperate in a workable way and get it done. To my mind, as a model of classic car, 500's are probably the most numerous - and deserve greater resources for owner / restorers.

I think that the main reason why Fiats of this era corroded badly is down to the way they were designed rather than assembled. Whilst I'm sure that modern steels, bonding techniques and protective coatings are a significant factor leading to the long life of contemporary vehicles, it's also obvious that manufacturers avoid having welded joints or any steel at all in the main splash-zones and have omitted things likel gutter-rails. By carrying the engine and running-gear on a forward chassis they have also reduced the percentage of the vehicle that is technically a monocoque.. wings (fenders) are not structural nor do they incorporate flanges with spot-welds.
I find that protective coatings applied before mig-welding are usually an obstacle to that process and create fire and fumes which can sometimes become quite worrying and which is always unpleasant.
Dipping a whole body shell, even one as small as a 500 is obviously not a DIY project and I would encourage restorers to thoroughly seal all bodywork joins having first worked an epoxy primer into every crack and gap.
My experience is that your Fiat will rust again despite your care and attention to detail, but nowhere near as quickly as when it used to spend it's life on the street and was used in all weather.
I've already extended the life of my car way beyond it's design parameters, so if the generation after me need to do a bit extra and need to pour scorn on my feeble workmanship...so what. ?