Technical Newbie help - please

ACB · Feb 4, 2018

So just taken my newly purchased beautiful 1972 500L out for a quick drive. First time for me - bit nervous - only had it two days and paid quite a lot of money for it.

Indicators didn't work for the first mile - then seemed to work ok.
Headlights don't work on full beam - the right goes on full beam, the left turns to side light mode - dipped beam and side lights seems ok.
The speedo wobbles around about all over the place and makes a loud clicking noise.
There is a loud rattling noise coming from the front of the car - is there a fan at the front?
The cabin fills with smoke which seems to come up through the hose where the heat comes from underneath the dashboard and seems to get worse the more the engine is worked - the chap i bought it off said it was the wax oil heating up and smoking (it was was wax oiled underneath as part of the renovation).
After about 15 minutes driving, when coming to a stop the oil pressure warning light comes on and the engine stalls.

Scratching my head a little after quickly and carefully driving it home

fiat500 · Feb 4, 2018

Don't panic even though I can understand why you might. The electrics are easily sorted and we usually blame things on bad earthing. Stalling needn't take much to sort out and of course, the oil light dies come on when you stop. Speedo cable is either bent to tight, worn, loose or has an item missing. Fumes might be more than just Waxoyl but time will tell. Turn off the flap behind the seats for now. No fan at the front. Check under the bonnet for a loose battery, wheel, jack, toolbox or spanners that have been forgotten. It must have been restored to sell and has not been subjected to a running-,in process. Take one thing at a time and don't be misled by complex suggestions at this stage. Can you take it back to the seller or get answers from him/her?

ACB · Feb 4, 2018

fiat500 said:
Don't panic even though I can understand why you might. The electrics are easily sorted and we usually blame things on bad earthing. Stalling needn't take much to sort out and of course, the oil light dies come on when you stop. Speedo cable is either bent to tight, worn, loose or has an item missing. Fumes might be more than just Waxoyl but time will tell. Turn off the flap behind the seats for now. No fan at the front. Check under the bonnet for a loose battery, wheel, jack, toolbox or spanners that have been forgotten. It must have been restored to sell and has not been subjected to a running-,in process. Take one thing at a time and don't be misled by complex suggestions at this stage. Can you take it back to the seller or get answers from him/her?

OK thanks. The rattling/grinding noise at the front is the strangest problem - it sounds like a very noisy broken fan going round and round very quickly.

Electrical problems agreed fairly easily sorted.

The smoke coming into the cabin coupled with the oil pressure causing the car to stall when it idles is what I'm most worried about. The oil pressure was fine until about 15 minutes into driving it.

You're right it was restored to sell but by a private seller. I have to say it looks like it just came out of the factory - even the engine looks brand new.

BambinoClassic · Feb 5, 2018

With regard to electrics, have a look at the User manual. There’s a PDF version somewhere on here that details everything each fuse does, and it is quite a random collection of functions for each fuse that may well match where your issues lie.
You can then troubleshoot each fuse in a targeted way. I had a similarly odd set of non functioning lights with mine and i cleaned all the fuses and the box and things worked fine after. I subsequently just replaced the fuses as they’re so cheap.

Hope that helps one of your problems!

ACB · Feb 5, 2018

BambinoClassic said:
With regard to electrics, have a look at the User manual. There’s a PDF version somewhere on here that details everything each fuse does, and it is quite a random collection of functions for each fuse that may well match where your issues lie.
You can then troubleshoot each fuse in a targeted way. I had a similarly odd set of non functioning lights with mine and i cleaned all the fuses and the box and things worked fine after. I subsequently just replaced the fuses as they’re so cheap.

Hope that helps one of your problems!

Thank you! Yes I've had a look at the manual and will do what you say. I was thinking I might replace all the fuses and see what happens.

the hobbler · Feb 5, 2018

As people have wisely indicated, the best thing to do is to go through the problems one by one rather than seeing them as one giant problem. (1) if you wish, I can send you a copy of the 500L wiring diagram (which is slightly different from earlier versions)--e-mail me direct with your address and I will put a copy into the post to you. It is not uncommon to find that a fair percentage of electrical faults on the 500 are in fact 'earthing' faults--especially if the car has bee re-sprayed and things have just been bolted on top of fresh paint instead of ensuring that the wiring is properly earthed--paint can be a surprisingly good insulator! (2) the smoke from under the dash is because the hot air from the engine (it uses the air that has gone over the engine to cool it as the air that comes into the cabin to warm it) comes up under the dash through 2 vents--1 each side. These can be simply adjusted to either put heat into the cabin or up onto the screen. As Peter (Fiat 500) suggested, try running it for a period of time with heater flap (situated just ahead of the rear seat on the centre tunnel) shut. I would also suggest that you check for oil leaking onto the exhaust--is the dipstick staying fully down? (3) with regard to the rattling noise, see if there is anything catching on a wheel/brake-drum. there is NO fan at the front. The only fan on the car is the engine cooling fan which is in the shrouding on the left side of the engine. Is the noise only apparent when the car is in motion, or all the time that the engine is running? (4) Speedo cable noise---undo the cable from the back of the speedo head and see if you can give it a better 'lead'--i.e. remove any kinks in the cable. (5) when the engine is at normal running temperature, the oil-pressure light is allowed to come on when the engine is idling, AS LONG AS IT GOES OUT AS SOON AS YOU REV THE ENGINE. On an air-cooled engine, the engine lubricating oil has a secondary purpose--it helps cool the engine. This is why a lot of people fit the 3-1/2 litre alloy sump. The extra capacity helps keep the engine cooler, to the point that the oil-light will never come on, even when 'hot' idling. These sumps can be obtained 'bare' (i.e. no ABARTH or GIANNINI badging). (6) Engine stalling--this is probably just a matter of adjustment of the idle screw and/or the mixture screw. Had you got the 'choke' fully off? This enrichment device is normally only needed for a few minutes running.
Lastly, where are you based---one thing that I try to encourage is the 'meeting of like minds'. If there is another 500 owner in your vicinity, you will find that generally speaking they are only too happy to help out--plus you have the social pleasure of 'like minds'. :bang:

F123C · Feb 5, 2018

Re:- Main beam not working on one side - check that's it's not just a blown bulb (main filament can blow leaving the dip filament still working).

Remove the bulb, the main filament is the one that isn't under the little shield. (A filament looks like a little coil spring of fine wire). Try tapping the bulb very gently with your finger, if the filament is blown you'll see one end wobbling around i.e. no longer attached. Or filament can be completely blown, detached at both ends and lying in the bottom of the glass envelope.

The above applies to normal bulbs i.e. the glass is shaped like a globe or ball.
If the bulb you remove is shaped like a tube with the end pinched off and has a grey painted tip, this indicates a Halogen type bulb, don't touch the glass part with your fingers or it'll fail later. If you accidentally touch the glass part, clean it with some isopropyl alcohol (iirc this is what's in medical wipes) and handle it with gloves, a cloth or tissue.

Re:- Noise from front that sounds like a rattling fan? Does the noise increase as road speed increases? Does it get louder turning one way or the other?
If so it might be a badly worn or adjusted wheel bearing. See if you can pinpoint the noise down to one side. Jack up this side of the car and support on an axle stand (or block of timber on top of the removed wheel if you don't have an axle stand, don't use bricks or blocks!). Spin the wheel to check for a worn wheel bearing, grip the wheel at top and bottom and rock it to check for a badly worn/adjusted bearing.

AL.

turbo500 · Feb 5, 2018

Having experienced some of these, here's my input

ACB said:
So just taken my newly purchased beautiful 1972 500L out for a quick drive. First time for me - bit nervous - only had it two days and paid quite a lot of money for it.

Indicators didn't work for the first mile - then seemed to work ok.
Headlights don't work on full beam - the right goes on full beam, the left turns to side light mode - dipped beam and side lights seems ok.
The speedo wobbles around about all over the place and makes a loud clicking noise.

Speed cable is not mounted properly, unscrew it at the back of the dashboard, clean any gunk where it gets screwed into the dash, and also any gunk around the cable itself. If that doesn't fix it, remove the inner cable, clean it, and reinstall it into the tube. (I don't remember if it needs to be greased or not, maybe someone can help)

There is a loud rattling noise coming from the front of the car - is there a fan at the front?

Most probably worn or damaged bearings. I had rust and heavy damage in mine, and it sounded just like that. It obviously increases with speed.

The cabin fills with smoke which seems to come up through the hose where the heat comes from underneath the dashboard and seems to get worse the more the engine is worked - the chap i bought it off said it was the wax oil heating up and smoking (it was was wax oiled underneath as part of the renovation).

Maybe an exhaust leak in from the exhaust manifolds? What does it smell like? Also, you can close the valve that brings heat into the cabin, it's located on the rear of the center tunnel. Turn the lever and you should stop getting air into the cabin from the engine. Make sure you resolve this, as it can be dangerous for you and your passengers!

After about 15 minutes driving, when coming to a stop the oil pressure warning light comes on and the engine stalls.

Scratching my head a little after quickly and carefully driving it home

ACB · Feb 6, 2018

the hobbler said:
As people have wisely indicated, the best thing to do is to go through the problems one by one rather than seeing them as one giant problem. (1) if you wish, I can send you a copy of the 500L wiring diagram (which is slightly different from earlier versions)--e-mail me direct with your address and I will put a copy into the post to you. It is not uncommon to find that a fair percentage of electrical faults on the 500 are in fact 'earthing' faults--especially if the car has bee re-sprayed and things have just been bolted on top of fresh paint instead of ensuring that the wiring is properly earthed--paint can be a surprisingly good insulator! (2) the smoke from under the dash is because the hot air from the engine (it uses the air that has gone over the engine to cool it as the air that comes into the cabin to warm it) comes up under the dash through 2 vents--1 each side. These can be simply adjusted to either put heat into the cabin or up onto the screen. As Peter (Fiat 500) suggested, try running it for a period of time with heater flap (situated just ahead of the rear seat on the centre tunnel) shut. I would also suggest that you check for oil leaking onto the exhaust--is the dipstick staying fully down? (3) with regard to the rattling noise, see if there is anything catching on a wheel/brake-drum. there is NO fan at the front. The only fan on the car is the engine cooling fan which is in the shrouding on the left side of the engine. Is the noise only apparent when the car is in motion, or all the time that the engine is running? (4) Speedo cable noise---undo the cable from the back of the speedo head and see if you can give it a better 'lead'--i.e. remove any kinks in the cable. (5) when the engine is at normal running temperature, the oil-pressure light is allowed to come on when the engine is idling, AS LONG AS IT GOES OUT AS SOON AS YOU REV THE ENGINE. On an air-cooled engine, the engine lubricating oil has a secondary purpose--it helps cool the engine. This is why a lot of people fit the 3-1/2 litre alloy sump. The extra capacity helps keep the engine cooler, to the point that the oil-light will never come on, even when 'hot' idling. These sumps can be obtained 'bare' (i.e. no ABARTH or GIANNINI badging). (6) Engine stalling--this is probably just a matter of adjustment of the idle screw and/or the mixture screw. Had you got the 'choke' fully off? This enrichment device is normally only needed for a few minutes running.
Lastly, where are you based---one thing that I try to encourage is the 'meeting of like minds'. If there is another 500 owner in your vicinity, you will find that generally speaking they are only too happy to help out--plus you have the social pleasure of 'like minds'. :bang:

Hi thanks for the advice. With the whirring sound at the front it’s not a bearing as the noise happens when the car is stationary. Also the car only cuts out at idle once it’s up to temperature. This is when the oil light comes on is come to pull up at the lights, oil light comes, on engine dies - but only after the car is running for 15 mins or so.

Thankfully I got chatting to someone on the fiat 500 uk Facebook group who doesn’t live too far away and he’s coming over this afternoon to have a look. He has two and sounds like he knows what he’s talking about!

I will post back on what we discover in case this helps someone else in the future.

Thanks all the

El cargador · Feb 6, 2018

The whirring noise at the front sounds like it could be something loose,maybe like some trim or wheel trims(as these are held on with a single bolt if you tap the edges they will rattle)

ACB · Feb 6, 2018

So it turns out the whirring/grinding sound is the cooling fan in the engine - probably broken. The sound is coming up through the hose at the front so inside the car the sound is coming from the front and is surprisingly loud. Looks like this is what’s pushing smoke into the cabin, and means the engine is overheating causing it to cut out. The rubber hose stays cool even when the engine is warm. Hopefully not a big job to fix just annoying that it wasn’t sorted before it was sold.

the hobbler · Feb 6, 2018

Sadly, the most sensible way to repair the cooling fan involves the engine to be removed. It CAN be done insitu, but I would not recommend going that route. It sounds as if either blades have broken off the fan and/or it has not been shimmed correctly in the housing. I f the fan has not been blowing cooling air round the engine, then yes, this would cause the engine to overheat, but as to whether it would cause a lot of smoke is debateable. I would suspect an oil leak somewhere. Personally, I would suggest that the engine is given a good go-over by somebody who knows what the're doing.
At the risk of asking a cheeky question--is your car an 'import' or a UK spec car (i.e. was it bought as in "import, fully restored"?)
I received your request for a copy of the wiring diagram for a '500L' ---I will put it into the post ASAP.

tjmra · Feb 7, 2018

Humour me. Look at the photo. This is what the fan assembly looks like from the back (after the air trunking is removed). You can see a nyloc nut, a special cone shaped spacer, then the fan itself. (And before anyone asks, no the nut is not tightened up properly...)

Now with that picture in your mind, take off the boot lid, air filter cover, the tube that runs to the carb, and the tube that runs to the tappet cover. Reach around and pull the lower part of the air trunking off the fan shroud.

Reach into the shroud and feel for the nut, spacer and fan. Are the nut and spacer there? Is the fan loose? Finally, did you ever hear the engine running without the noise?

Pending on your responses we can think about how to get it all back together. As Hobbs says, it is sensible to drop the motor and and have a good look. Because I am lazy I have sorted out a loose fan in situ a couple of times. Bit dirty and tough on the back though.

(Nothing you do here is a waste of time if you are going to pull the motor out.)

Joe R

Vitesse · Feb 7, 2018

tjmra said:
Humour me. Look at the photo. This is what the fan assembly looks like from the back (after the air trunking is removed). You can see a nyloc nut, a special cone shaped spacer, then the fan itself. (And before anyone asks, no the nut is not tightened up properly...)

Now with that picture in your mind, take off the boot lid, air filter cover, the tube that runs to the carb, and the tube that runs to the tappet cover. Reach around and pull the lower part of the air trunking off the fan shroud.

Reach into the shroud and feel for the nut, spacer and fan. Are the nut and spacer there? Is the fan loose? Finally, did you ever hear the engine running without the noise?

Pending on your responses we can think about how to get it all back together. As Hobbs says, it is sensible to drop the motor and and have a good look. Because I am lazy I have sorted out a loose fan in situ a couple of times. Bit dirty and tough on the back though.

(Nothing you do here is a waste of time if you are going to pull the motor out.)

Joe R

View attachment 188197

I agree with Joe. First stop would be do what he has said. I’ve had it a couple of times where the nut has come loose. If you are a bit of a contortionist you can get around there with a socket.

I thought it happened again recently, every time I rev’d the engine I could hear a metallic noise as if the fan was catching the tin work. Turned out one of the clips that hold the air filter lid on had come loose and was rattling around

Tony

ACB · Feb 7, 2018

tjmra said:
Humour me. Look at the photo. This is what the fan assembly looks like from the back (after the air trunking is removed). You can see a nyloc nut, a special cone shaped spacer, then the fan itself. (And before anyone asks, no the nut is not tightened up properly...)

Now with that picture in your mind, take off the boot lid, air filter cover, the tube that runs to the carb, and the tube that runs to the tappet cover. Reach around and pull the lower part of the air trunking off the fan shroud.

Reach into the shroud and feel for the nut, spacer and fan. Are the nut and spacer there? Is the fan loose? Finally, did you ever hear the engine running without the noise?

Pending on your responses we can think about how to get it all back together. As Hobbs says, it is sensible to drop the motor and and have a good look. Because I am lazy I have sorted out a loose fan in situ a couple of times. Bit dirty and tough on the back though.

(Nothing you do here is a waste of time if you are going to pull the motor out.)

Joe R

View attachment 188197

Ah ok, very helpful indeed. Why do I need to remover the boot lid though? And I assume I can get to it without having to raise the car up.

If it does happen to be the actual fan itself can it not be replaced like this? I can't even drive to a garage at the moment so guess if the engine needs taking out I'm looking at more a few £££ to get it done.

The whole point of spending such a lot of money on this car was that everything was stripped and rebuilt and good to go, not half working and needing money to get it on the road :thumbs:

Someone else asked - it's a UK supplied RHD car - two owners during the first 44 years of its life, then the guy that restored it over the last 18 months, now me.

ACB · Feb 7, 2018

the hobbler said:
Sadly, the most sensible way to repair the cooling fan involves the engine to be removed. It CAN be done insitu, but I would not recommend going that route. It sounds as if either blades have broken off the fan and/or it has not been shimmed correctly in the housing. I f the fan has not been blowing cooling air round the engine, then yes, this would cause the engine to overheat, but as to whether it would cause a lot of smoke is debateable. I would suspect an oil leak somewhere. Personally, I would suggest that the engine is given a good go-over by somebody who knows what the're doing.
At the risk of asking a cheeky question--is your car an 'import' or a UK spec car (i.e. was it bought as in "import, fully restored"?)
I received your request for a copy of the wiring diagram for a '500L' ---I will put it into the post ASAP.

UK supplied RHD car from new - one of the reasons it attracted me, not bought from Italy and shipped over. Thanks in advance for the wiring diagram. I replaced fuse A today - horn and interior light - and it immediately blew in my fingers when it touched the holder. Something wrong there then

fiat500 · Feb 7, 2018

ACB said:
Ah ok, very helpful indeed. Why do I need to remove the boot lid though? And I assume I can get to it without having to raise the car up.

Joe and Tony know what they're talking about as they have done it before. It's a contortionist's job and if you want to show off just how flexible you are then leave the engine-lid on and save yourself five minutes up front to lose half an hour in doing the job.

If your car has been properly restored

then you will have an under-tray, which is why there's no point jacking it up; in any case the air duct inlet is angled in such a way that you need to get at the nut from above and behind the engine.
I would find it a bit of a challenge and if I had the problem I would take out the engine as suggested by Tom.
Even with the engine out of the car it's hard to tighten the nut to a satisfactory torque because there's nothing decent to get a grip on to stop the dynamo spindle from turning; there will originally have been a factory tool for that.
I use a new nyloc nut with Loctite on the threads and secure it using a pneumatic impact wrench...not something I could do in situ.

Fayray · Feb 7, 2018

This sounds like a tricky job and removing the boot lid will be very helpful. I can assure you that it's incredibly easy to remove it though as it was designed for a quick removal. From memory, without going outside to check, it's one hinge nut, the strap (twist and pull with fingers) and the number plate light wire that usually detaches itself (just remember to reattach it when you put the lid back on)

the hobbler · Feb 7, 2018

One of the reasons that I recommend removal of your engine to rectify the fan problem is that not only do you want to cure the problem, but it is a sensible idea to find out WHY you have the problem so that you can prevent it occurring again---something that would prove difficult with the engine still in the car. You will find that unless you enjoy the advantage that the possession of 6ft arms gives you, it is a darn site easier to sort out engine problems with the engine-cover off. Removal of the cover is a 'less than 5min' job---remove the 10mm nut from the pivot-pin at the bottom of the cover, disconnect the number-plate light feed-wire, twist and pull out the retaining strap and then move the engine-cover sideways and out of the way.
I have a colleague in Kettering who has built up a lot of 500 engines--if you would like to contact me with your e-mail address, I will check with him and, if all is Ok, pass his details onto you. Was your purchase a private buy, or from a company who specialises in 500s? Apologies for the nosiness!:bang:

ACB · Feb 7, 2018

the hobbler said:
One of the reasons that I recommend removal of your engine to rectify the fan problem is that not only do you want to cure the problem, but it is a sensible idea to find out WHY you have the problem so that you can prevent it occurring again---something that would prove difficult with the engine still in the car. You will find that unless you enjoy the advantage that the possession of 6ft arms gives you, it is a darn site easier to sort out engine problems with the engine-cover off. Removal of the cover is a 'less than 5min' job---remove the 10mm nut from the pivot-pin at the bottom of the cover, disconnect the number-plate light feed-wire, twist and pull out the retaining strap and then move the engine-cover sideways and out of the way.
I have a colleague in Kettering who has built up a lot of 500 engines--if you would like to contact me with your e-mail address, I will check with him and, if all is Ok, pass his details onto you. Was your purchase a private buy, or from a company who specialises in 500s? Apologies for the nosiness!:bang:

Hello and thanks again. You can be as nosey as you like! I bought it privately, not from a 500 specialist, but from a body shop/mechanic specialist. I’ll send you a private message - thank you so much.

Appreciate all the help and advice on here - amazing group of enthusiasts. Hoping to take the car to shows and events this year - once it’s all working properly!

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