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Old 10-02-2018   #31
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Re: winter maintenance

I had mine reamed in here locally ,it cost me 30 not sure if that's good or bad
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Old 13-02-2018   #32
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Re: winter maintenance

Anyone knows how much i have to tight the two nuts that secure the wishbones at the suspension link? I guess not much since those use shelf lock nuts but do the have to move freely? There is no torque ref at haynes manual.
Thomas
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Old 13-02-2018   #33
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Re: winter maintenance

Quote Originally Posted by gordinir8 View Post
Anyone knows how much i have to tight the two nuts that secure the wishbones at the suspension link? I guess not much since those use shelf lock nuts but do the have to move freely? There is no torque ref at haynes manual.
Thomas
Thomas, do you mean the two nuts at the inner end of the pair of top arms?

JAN_0111 by Peter Thompson, on Flickr

If so, the 126 book says 25Nm. The nuts don't move freely; all of the movement is the torsion of the rubber
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Old 13-02-2018   #34
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Re: winter maintenance

Thanks Peter yes those are the nuts I am talking about, book also says to tight those with the car not in jacks if I remember correct.
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Old 13-02-2018   #35
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Re: winter maintenance

Quote Originally Posted by gordinir8 View Post
Thanks Peter yes those are the nuts I am talking about, book also says to tight those with the car not in jacks if I remember correct.
I think that I eventually worked out that they actually have a bit of pre-load on the rubber. So you place the arms horizontal and then tighten the nuts under no load, either with the steering knuckle still not attached or with the weight taken off the suspension. Then loosely fit the knuckle and its top and bottom bolts and you do tighten them once the car is under load.
This means that the bushes in the top links are permanently exerting a small amount of rotational torque against the upward motion created by the vehicle mass and I guess that this adds something to the effectiveness of the suspension
On the other hand...I don't think it matters much how you do it.
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Old 14-02-2018   #36
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Re: winter maintenance

Quote Originally Posted by fiat500 View Post
I think that I eventually worked out that they actually have a bit of pre-load on the rubber.......................
On the other hand...I don't think it matters much how you do it.
I always wondered if there was preload.. but can't remember seeing or finding anything in my books...
on older Lotuses they have similar metalistic bushes, the procedure is to lower the car without the wishbone nuts tightened and place a measured block of wood under the chassis front/rear and weight the car down till the chassis touches the blocks and then tighten up the nuts...
if this procedure isn't followed then there are several effects; the car can sit higher or lower than it is supposed to, the bushes actually wear out quickly and split internally and finally handling is affected...

I have often wondered where you see pictures of 500s where the front is much higher than I would expect... perhaps these nuts are tightened with the suspension hanging down...

I'm sure someone must have more info on how to set up a 500 suspension...
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Old 14-02-2018   #37
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Re: winter maintenance

Quote Originally Posted by Bigvtwin996 View Post
I always wondered if there was preload.. but can't remember seeing or finding anything in my books...
on older Lotuses they have similar metalistic bushes, the procedure is to lower the car without the wishbone nuts tightened and place a measured block of wood under the chassis front/rear and weight the car down till the chassis touches the blocks and then tighten up the nuts...
if this procedure isn't followed then there are several effects; the car can sit higher or lower than it is supposed to, the bushes actually wear out quickly and split internally and finally handling is affected...

I have often wondered where you see pictures of 500s where the front is much higher than I would expect... perhaps these nuts are tightened with the suspension hanging down...

I'm sure someone must have more info on how to set up a 500 suspension...
Looking at it again, I may have got it wrong. (never happened before. )
The static-loaded position of the top links is definitely horizontal, but Thomas is right in that the instructions say to tighten the nuts in that position. The key thing is that the angle between the kingpin and the arms should be 95 degrees at this optimal load setting.....how are you going to accurately measure that?
Mine works fine though and the ride height looks even and not excessive.
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Old 14-02-2018   #38
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Re: winter maintenance

Quote Originally Posted by fiat500 View Post
. The key thing is that the angle between the kingpin and the arms should be 95 degrees at this optimal load setting.....how are you going to accurately measure that?
I'm sure there must be a Fiat tool for that...
probably the size of a workshop that you must bolt the car to, with special arms and gauges...
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Last edited by Bigvtwin996; 14-02-2018 at 16:22.
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Old 14-02-2018   #39
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Re: winter maintenance

The general rule with 'Metalastic'? type (rubber/metal) bushes is that they are tightened with the car at normal ride height i.e. let the car down onto it's wheels, bounce the car on it's suspension and roll it back and forth to settle everything it's normal position, then reach underneath and tighten the nuts/bolts. You can then raise the car to finish tighten with a torque wrench (if you wish....). This way the bushes are under no torsional stress at rest and on smooth road surfaces which should maximise their life. If the car is usually driven one-up (i.e. driver only on board), it might be best to have someone of similar weight to sit in the driver's seat before tightening the fasteners.

Next question is what to do if the split pin holes in the spindle/nut don't align when tightened to the correct torque figure....

AL.
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Old 14-02-2018   #40
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Re: winter maintenance

Quote Originally Posted by F123C View Post

Next question is what to do if the split pin holes in the spindle/nut don't align when tightened to the correct torque figure....

AL.
You just say "Bugger!" and then replace them with Nylocs as everyone else except me has done...please contradict me everyone.
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Old 14-02-2018   #41
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Re: winter maintenance

Quote Originally Posted by F123C View Post
Next question is what to do if the split pin holes in the spindle/nut don't align when tightened to the correct torque figure....
AL.
you can become very sad like some friends of mine....
they make washers exact thicknesses (they know how to even calculate the thickness) so all the bolt heads line up the same and the nuts etc have flats that are horizontal when torqued up correctly...
Why? simply because they can...
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Old 15-02-2018   #42
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Re: winter maintenance

Quote Originally Posted by Bigvtwin996 View Post
------------------------
--------------------------------they make washers exact thicknesses (they know how to even calculate the thickness) so all the bolt heads line up the same and the nuts etc have flats that are horizontal when torqued up correctly...
Why? simply because they can...
I thought everyone did it this way.

AL.
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Old 15-02-2018   #43
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Re: winter maintenance

Dealing with this thing every single day. In aviation world that every single nut goes with a specific torque the pfoblem is that split pin has to be perfectly align. So sometimes there is always a main washer and then secondary washers to adjust accordingly. Sometimes we are just trying different nuts until we find the appropiate. I will support each side with my jack and without the wheel on and tight my shelf locking nuts. Really don't care if it is going to be 95 or 100 or degrees. Can you imagine how many old school mechanics know all those little details? Very few to none i guess. Of course if is good to analyse it and discuss it by the book here but in real world things are lot flexible.
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Old 16-02-2018   #44
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Re: winter maintenance

Hi Thomas,

I worked for a while in Aircraft Overhaul (Pratt & Whitney JT 8?/9D? fuel systems), also in an Aircraft Maintenance & Overhaul Support Services workshop, so I have some ideas how pernickety and rigorous the requirements are in this field.

I also worked in the Middle East in charge of maintenance of a Royal Fleet of high-performance, luxury and armoured vehicles. If anything bad had happened to a Royal Personage while driving a vehicle I had signed-off on, my head would literally have been 'on the chopping block'
So I took zero chances and double-checked everything....

But, back in the real world, I doubt many Mechanics would even bother using a torque wrench to tighten the above suspension arm nuts, let alone bother supporting the arm in the correct (what was it, at 95? degrees, get outta here!!or else, words beginning with F) position before tightening. The nuts would be tightened 'enough', possibly indicated by a slight grunt (not all Mechanics grunt!). If the split pin holes didn't align, then you either tighten a little more or else loosen slightly (more likely loosen as it's less effort!).

AL.
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Old 16-02-2018   #45
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Re: winter maintenance

I've often thought about Fiat kingpins and those pesky bushes. Assuming that the bushes bores in the housing are circular and in-line with each other (am I assuming too much?), I can't help but wonder why the bushes can't be pre-finished to the correct size.

Also wondered if anyone has made their own bushes possibly from another material. I remember having bushes made from a Nylon? type material (iirc it was called Tufnol) to replace motorcycle swing-arm bushes. I wonder if this or a similar material would withstand the loads experienced?

Also wondered if it might be possible to use caged needle roller bearings (e.g. as used in 2 stroke motorcycle small end bearings) in place of bushes (with a little machining of the bush bores in the upright).

Also wondered if anyone has modified the way grease gets to the bushes. The original (iirc) one grease point above the top rubber/metal bush and the grease then trying to find it's way down to the bottom bush always seemed overly optimistic to me. In the past I drilled and tapped the upright at both bushes and fitted grease nipples, but only on my own car (i.e. at my own risk). Never had any problem after that. Some say to use gear oil (not EP type) instead of grease.

Al.
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Last edited by F123C; 16-02-2018 at 03:11.
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