Technical 500D parts book anyone?

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Technical 500D parts book anyone?

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Hi all, does anyone have access to a 500D parts book? I have the 500F version but there are quite a few differences. I have just discovered that there is a subtle difference between the mounting arrangements for 500D rear springs as opposed to those on the 500f. This is not just train spotting stuff, but actually has a bearing on my rebuild. I'm pretty sure I have figured out what is going on, but to be sure I need to see a parts book diagram for the 500D rear swing arm and springs. (or else talk to a D owner who has recently taken apart their rear suspension or who remembers doing it at some time in the past!)

I'll post the full techical details of this issue on my rebuild thread (see sticky for 500d with 126) once I am sure I'm adding to the pool of knowledge rather than polluting it!

Cheers Roger
 
Hi Roger,
I'm sure I have both the 500D and 500F parts books and I am planning to follow the same plan with 500F swing arms (sourced from NZ!) in my Giardinera. I think from memory you will need to use 500F or 126 springs with the arms to do the conversion.
Let me know what you need looked up and I will see what I can find.
Regards Damon
 
Thanks Damon. this info may apply to your van, I'm not sure. Here is what I think I know....

The mounting system for the rear springs on a 500D differs to that on a 500F. The difference is in how the springs are secured and isolated from the car body for noise.

One key difference is in the positions of the top and bottom ends of the springs, relative to one another - that is to say the end of the lower "pig tail" versus the upper "pig tail". I'll call this 'Spring timing' since if one end of the spring is at 12 oclock the other end will be at a different position on the clock.

On a 500F, spring timing does not matter. This is because the lower spring end is retained by a bump on the swing arm, which stops the spring turning, and the top end is retained by a pressed steel cup, which also has a bump. The cup is mounted over a rubber ring bush which in turn sits against a reciever ring on the bottom of the car. This system allows a spring of any timing to be mounted, since the top cup and rubber ring can mount in any position around the clock.

On a D, the system is different. The spring is retained in the same way on the swing arm (although the system used looks a little different) BUT, instead of a pressed steel cup, the top of the spring just has a rubber bush, and instead the reciever ring welded to the car floor has a bump to hold the top of the spring. This means D models can only accept springs that have a certain spring timing - the spring ends need to fit with the stops that retain them top AND bottom.

My problem is that I have bought aftermarket springs that do not have the same spring timing as D springs. This is not a problem on F cars because the upper cup and rubber mounting can me simply turned around a few degrees(or hours on the clock) as required to suit. It looks as though my only option is to cut a little bit off my springs so the timing matches the lower swingarm mount and the upper receiver mount.

I need to see a parts book to confirm this because I don't have the D swingarms anymore. It won't solve my problem, but it would confirm I am right that this is an issue with aftermarket springs in a D regardless of the swingarm model, not a sypmtpom of adding F swing arms (as I have done). It is just possible that the D swing arms have a flat reciever cup similar to that on the top of an F model which allows the spring to be rotated at any point (The F system upside down!) but I doubt it.

Phew...Well done if you understand what I am saying!

Thanks Roger

PS - I know most parts suppliers show the cup and rubber ring as being for D and F models, but I suspect this is out of ignorance. I have at last found one that lists a separate rubber ring for a D which looks quite different to that of an F. Also, I have tried the F model rubbers on my car and the inner diameter is not sufficient to fit the diameter of the hole in the reciever cuo which allows the shock to travel up through the floor of the car.
 
Hi Roger,
You are quite correct- the spring mounting system is quite different between the two models- the F has a much thicker rubber ring at the top which can be rotated to adjust the orientation of the spring ends whereas the D has fixed locations of the ends in both the upper and lower positions with a much thinner plastic spacer in between.
I have attached a picture of the spring platforms on D and F arms, hope this helps although I suspect your solution of cutting the spring is probably the easiest solution. I will see how I go when I get to this point...!
Regards
Damon
 

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Thanks Chris, that's very useful as it confirms there is indeed a rubber packer on the top AND bottom of D springs. I have found a place that sells them so while I wait to them to show up I'll look to trim a we pit off my non standard springs so they match up on the top and bottom mounting points.

Interestingly, the F model parts book only shows rubber buffers on the top of the springs in the diagram, but if you look in the detail of the part numbers it specifies 4 buffers per car?

Thanks Roger
 
Interestingly, the F model parts book only shows rubber buffers on the top of the springs in the diagram, but if you look in the detail of the part numbers it specifies 4 buffers per car?

Thanks Roger

They're Italian - somatime the book she is right, somatime she is wrong ....

Chris
 
I pulled the rear suspension out so I could take a photo of the parts to make it easier to see what is what.

This is from an F. You can see the pressed steel cup and the big rubber bush that fits at the top of the spring.

You can also see the smaller bush that fits on the bottom of the spring. (Made of a some kind of plastic and really tough.) If these are only supposed to be on a D then I have put them on my car by mistake. (They were there when I bought the car 26 yeas ago so they went back on when I did my resto.) I kinda like the idea of having the buffer between the spring and the arm.

On both the bushes you can see the step where the end of the spring butts up to to stop it rotating.

Also note my fast racing springs. Racing cos they are red and fast because I used quick drying paint.....

Whilst on the subject of springs the second photo shows a plastic tube that fits over the end of the spring. This is not mentioned anywhere so you heard it here first.

SANY1089.JPG SANY1039.JPG

Joe R


(I lied about pulling all this out for the photo, these are from my rebuild.)
 
morning Joe;
very interesting your comment regarding a plastic sleeve on the bottom of the rear springs---I have a (2nd hand) set of lowered rear springs, 19cm, and they also have plastic sleeves on them. I wonder if it is to prevent any re-action between the spring and wishbone. M/benz suffered quite a lot of broken front springs, 190s in particular at one time. They overcame it by inserting slim anode shims between the springs and lower wishbones---it cured the problem. Does the plastic sleeve achieve the same?
 
Hobbs,

not really sure but I can't help thinking it would be to stop the metal against metal contact to prevent noise or wear perhaps.

If you have an aftermarket set and they have gone to the trouble of emulating this feature of the originals then there must be a good reason.

Chris will supply some logic in due course.

Regards

Joe R
 
Thanks Joe :)

Many cars seem to be fitted with these sleeves and my belief is that they do two things - they stop the noise of metal on metal when the spring is suddenly compressed and they trap mud and promote rust. I've removed them from my cars and just make sure I don't drive over and deep potholes ....

Chris

PS: The rear springs on my bambino are also red and wow - doesn't it FLY ..
 
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