Register Login
Save up to 15% with Adrian Flux insurance!
Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 1 Week Ago   #1
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 9
Thanks: 0
Trader Rating: 0
Denmark 
Engine originality

Hi everyone
I'm looking at a 1968 Spider, that at some point has been furnished with an engine with the block no 132 DB 2A 0, and engine type 132 - something - 000.
As far as I can find out, this is a 1995 ccm with 82 kW / 112 hp. Not one of the many variants originally fitted to any spider
The original 1438 ccm engine has about 90 hp. The difference in torque is probably proportional.
So my question is - will this work? The early spiders (including this one) were fitted with a torque tube, and as I understand it, these were changed in later model to a system that would take more torque…?
On top of this technical question there are the considerations of originality.
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

Rovs is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 1 Week Ago   #2
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 993
Thanks: 142
Trader Rating: 0
Ireland 
Re: Engine originality

If originality is important to you, then I think you should buy an original car with original size engine.....

I've fitted 1600 and 1800 cc. engine to 124 Coupes/Spiders - and had clearance problems due to the increased engine height (the cylinder blocks on 1600, 1800 and 2000 engine are taller than on the 1438 (this block was based on the 124 saloon/sedan of 1197 and 1438cc).

If you strip a 1438 engine and compare it with a 1600,1800 or 2000 engine you'll see that the crankshaft and con-rods are smaller/lighter on the 1438cc. So the 2000 engine is both taller and heavier.

In contemporary road tests, it was noted that the 1438 engine was 'sweeter' and nicer to use than the later larger capacity engined cars. The original early 1438 cars had, as you say, a torque tube connected to the rear axle, driving the rear wheels. Some say this gave better handling but iirc had a tendency for the rear of the car to lift under heavy acceleration. It wasn't used for long before being replaced with a 4 link axle plus Panhard Rod as used on all subsequent models, regardless of engine capacity.

Bear in mind that should you need spares for a torque-tube axle, there might be difficulty in obtaining them as this axle type was only used for a short period of time. (I had a torque-tube plus rear axle for 25 years until my last house move, couldn't even give it away, so it got scrapped!). Iirc, this model also had a rear anti-roll bar fitted (deleted from later axle types).

If you do decide to buy this car fitted with a 2000 engine, one point you might watch out for is that the taller engine's cylinder is not touching the brake pipe feeding the rear brakes - you'd need to use an inspection camera or mirror + lamp to check this out. You don't say if the car in question is right or left hand drive, but I fitted a 1608cc engine to a 1438 RHD car and the cylinder head almost wore through the rear brake pipe (on RHD cars it runs across the bulkhead then turns to follow the gearbox tunnel and onto the rear brakes) Just caught it in time, as the early cars had only single circuit brakes, failure of this (or any pipe) would have resulted in total brake failure. These cars can be converted to dual circuit brakes using the later type dual master cylinder plus some possible re-doing of brake pipes.

Also, check out the front suspension very carefully, especially looking for cracks on the front engine/suspension crossmember in the vicinity of where the lower suspension wishbones/arms are attached, also around the upper mounting which is bolted through the chassis rail on both sides. Later crossmembers were improved a little in these areas but could still have problems if the bolts/nuts are not kept tight or if involved in a collision e.g. with a kerb.

Beware any car that has impact damage to the engine oil sump/pan, if this is pushed upwards to any degree, it can close off the oil intake to the pump or indeed fracture the oil pump intake horn.

Hth, (see my signature )

Al.
Thanks Rovs thanked for this post
__________________
If what I write is helpful please click on the 'thanks' button, (smiley face on lower right).
F123C is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 1 Week Ago   #3
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 9
Thanks: 0
Trader Rating: 0
Denmark 
Re: Engine originality

Hi Al
Your answer is very useful - not least the first line ;-)

I got a lot of info new to m me - ie that the larger engines are taller and heavier than the 1400.
It seems that later models were improved in several ways, and I believe I will look for one of these.

Any other comments?
Anyone else

martin
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

Rovs is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 1 Week Ago   #4
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 993
Thanks: 142
Trader Rating: 0
Ireland 
Re: Engine originality

Hi Martin,

I think if I was in the market for a 124 Spider I'd buy one of the models that are well catered-for as regards parts, this tends to be the later models.
There are parts specialists for the 124 Spider in Germany, the Netherlands, +possible elsewhere in Europe.

For all models of 124 Spider, be very thorough as regards checking for corrosion, they can rust anywhere and everywhere. (a friend imported a car from Massachusetts and it was rusted everywhere, had to scrap it - too bad to repair).
For this reason many choose to import or buy previously imported cars from the USA - usually from the West Coast or maybe Texas etc. However such cars are likely to have bleached paintwork, cracked interior trim parts and will be fitted with all manner of anti-pollution/emissions equipment - all of which will reduce power - the later cars had 2 litre engine developing only something like 80 bhp (until Legend Industries were chosen to fit a turbo, this boosted power to 122 bhp). By comparison the naturally aspirated (i.e. non-turbo) 2 litre engine used in various Fiats in Europe developed 115 -119 bhp, the Euro 1600's developed 108-110 bhp, the Euro 1800 c. 118? bhp.

My recommendation would be a European spec 124 Spider BS1 (this model came fitted with 2 x twin choke downdraft carbs (same as the 124 Coupe BC1) and developed 110 bhp, the advantage is that if the carbs are correctly set-up, this engine has imho the best pick-up and revs the highest (the rev counter in these models read to 9000 rpm, instead of the more normal 8000 rpm. (I've seen 9500 rpm on a standard engine). But for ease of maintenance, better to stick with a model that uses just one twin-choke carb (i.e. all the other models).

Another model to consider if you want maximum power is the 1985 European model :- Fiat Spidereuropa Volumex (abbreviated to VX), this had 135 bhp but is quite rare, (and probably expensive!) only circa 500 examples, sold in Germany, Belgium and the Netherlands.

There were also limited edition Abarth Rallye and Abarth Stradale versions - these are very expensive and are fitted with some non-standard parts that are likely near impossible to find. Beware, if buying one of these, that's it's a genuine car and not a half-converted standard car. (genuine cars had e.g. independent rear suspension with tubular wishbones).

In case you don't already know, there's a very good book available which lists all the variations of the 124 Spider, lots of pics and technical info:-
'Fiat & Abarth 124 Spider & Coupe', by John Tipler (Veloce Publishing PLC).

Hth,

Al.
Thanks Rovs thanked for this post
__________________
If what I write is helpful please click on the 'thanks' button, (smiley face on lower right).
F123C is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Reply
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump
Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
(G) Fiat 500 Jolly originality mtourlos 500 (Classic) 8 14-10-2017 11:41
(T) Help to estimate originality/value of 1968 500F Eykiriku 500 (Classic) 11 06-02-2017 21:27
(S) Originality centralcentos Cinquecento / Seicento 10 01-05-2015 20:15
(G) Clarion radio: What price originality Zem Barchetta 6 24-10-2009 17:23
(T) motorcycle engine fitted in rear engine fiats pls join my other thread loadsofx19s 126 5 02-05-2008 16:07