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Old 10-10-2019   #1
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Bringing ‘er back to life

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Old 13-10-2019   #2
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Re: Bringing ‘er back to life

Nice video

You have a nice clear speaking voice and the order in which you did things and how you reasoned things out was quite logical.
You obviously know your way around cars, maybe you're a professional?

Thanks for leaving out the loud music, bad language and other crap that other's seem to find obligatory in videos nowadays.

You mentioned the distributor rotor arm?
The distributor rotor arm, if held in place by 2 screws, can only be fitted in one position - if you look at the underside, there's iirc 2 projections, one square and one round, which engage with the top part of the centrifugal advance mechanism.

Al.
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Old 13-10-2019   #3
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Re: Bringing ‘er back to life

Thank you sir. Kind words

While I wouldn't say I'm a professional, I have my own shop and I make a living turning wrenches, so maybe I more or less qualify (www.wlhequipment.com). I have been a mechanic in one way or another all my life. I've never worked on cars for a living. I hate cars. More accurately, I hate how crazy people get about their cars. I've been an aircraft mechanic, and those people are less picky than car people. I work on heavy equipment now, and love it because I can hit that skid steer with a sledge hammer and the owner won't give a hoot as long as it runs.

Yeah it makes sense that that rotor (arm) would only go in one way. Thankfully, that's the way it's in now
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Old 25-05-2020   #4
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Re: Bringing ‘er back to life

Howdy y’all!

Been awhile. Since I’ve been here last, I’ve refurbished the engine and transmission. Here’s my latest vid:

https://youtu.be/RNZZuoXE5qE
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Old 02-06-2020   #5
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Re: Bringing ‘er back to life

Here's the latest. I'm trying to get this thing driveable this summer

https://youtu.be/zAhEvQe4Wf0

There is still a high - pitched noise coming from somewhere, sounds like some sort of grinding. I'm going to find that noise next (I hope) and fix it.
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Old 03-06-2020   #6
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Re: Bringing ‘er back to life

Funny - I got an email that F123C had replied to this thread, but it's not here Hah. Well, thank you F123C for the compliments! You are correct I am not doing the water pump any favors by running it dry. I didn't mention it previously, but I had taken the v belt off and got the same result. What happens is, when the engine first fires, it's nice and quiet. After just a few moments (I want to say 30 seconds or less), the noise starts. That's kind of counter - intuitive if you ask me. When engines first start, everything is dry - that's usually when noise like this would happen. Of course, this is the opposite of everything that makes sense It sounds like a grinding / squeaking to me. It sounds low and back on the engine, and I can't tell if it's engine or transmission. I did the simple stuff - it's not the throw out bearing, and no amount of shifting makes any change. It could be something grinding on the flywheel maybe. I don't know. My radiator is going to be here in a few days. I'll put it in to run it longer, and be able to take a mechanic's stethoscope all over the thing to try to at least localize the noise. I don't know how I'm going to isolate whether it's engine or transmission. I may have to pull the trans to find out. The crummy thing there is, the starter is bolted to the transmission bellhousing, so to start the engine separate from the trans, I have to not only pull the trans, but remove the bellhousing, and put that back on the engine, so I have some place to put the starter.

I'm also highly suspect of that crankshaft. That's an ebay unit I got because the original crank was destroyed. I cleaned out the oil / sludge gallys as best I could. I sprayed cleaner through all of them, and blew them out with shop air. I had hoped that would have been enough. Maybe not. I may have to pull the oil pan again, and check all the bottom end bearings and those oil passages again. Maybe some piece of crap in the oil gallys broke loose and is blocking lubrication to something. Ugh. I knew when I put that in, that I should have removed those plugs, and sent it to a sonic cleaner to do it right. I did a short cut, and it may be haunting me now.

Time will tell.
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Old 06-06-2020   #7
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Re: Bringing ‘er back to life

I did indeed reply to this thread, suggesting the noise might possibly be due to the water pump being driven without coolant, or maybe the timing belt tensioner bearing?

However upon re-reading what I had written, I felt, given your previously demonstrated high level of mechanical knowledge and logical approach to diagnosing faults, that you had surely checked out these items already, so I deleted my reply. Sorry if I caused any confusion.

After listening yet again to your video, I wonder if the noise might be due to an excessively tight timing belt? You could try lightly spraying it with water to see if the noise disappears/changes? Back in the day, (Fiat dealership) we had the correct Fiat belt tension tester but most of our Mechanics just tensioned it so that it was possible to twist the longest belt run by almost 90 degrees with firm finger pressure when the engine was cold with a new belt. I recall that, with a cold engine (1970's Fiat twin-cams) it was possible to gradually work the belt off the top pulleys using your fingertips (we sometimes found it necessary to alter the valve timing a little - a Fiat recommended mod. ), without having to back-off the tensioner, but that you couldn't when the engine had heated up. Also, if you blipped the throttle on a cold engine, you could actually see the slack in the belt - this slack disappeared when the engine had warmed up. If you over-tensioned the belt when cold, it would be too tight when hot (due to al. cyl. head expansion) and made a sound similar to what I seem to be hearing in your video.

Also, your belt looks used? On some engines, I've seen a lower tension recommended if a used belt is being re-used.

Al.
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Last edited by F123C; 06-06-2020 at 03:52.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #8
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Re: Bringing ‘er back to life

The timing belt is new - ish. By that I mean, I bought it recently, but it has been installed and removed a few times, so maybe that's what you're seeing there. I know you're not supposed to do that, but since I made this engine non-interference, I'm being a bit bold with it. Once I start driving it, I'll probably replace it again just to be safe.

The tension seems to be ok. Just like you mentioned, about half way in the longest span, it can turn 90 degrees fairly easily, and I can slide it around on the pulleys with just my fingers, so that seems to be ok there.

I want to thank you for your suggestion to use a garden hose! Brilliant! Because of that, I found the noise to be the rear main seal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maburT3MR84

I am thrilled that it's the seal and not something internal to the engine or transmission. If simply keeping those seals lubed doesn't turn out to be a long term fix, I can replace it. That's going to be a bummer, but at least I'll know what's going on. I wonder if this has anything to do with the new oil pan I put in? The original pan had a baffle in it, and the new pan has no baffle. That new pan was just recommended to me by someone else, and it does make removal much easier with the engine in the car. But - I'm not sure if that baffle helped the seals stay lubed. That will probably remain a mystery.

What's next is my screwing around with a used radiator I stupidly bought, and an now stuck with. It turns out my cleverness knows bounds.

Thanks again for all your suggestions. I'm lucky to have your counsel.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #9
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Re: Bringing ‘er back to life

I'm delighted that my little bit of input helped you to solve where that noise was coming from. The delight I could hear in your voice would have been more than enough thanks for my small efforts, but you also were kind enough to acknowledge my help in your video, much appreciated.

I don't know how you made your engine 'interference-free'? do you mean you removed the eccentric (that was there originally to drive the mechanical fuel pump on the earlier carburetored engines) on the auxiliary drive shaft? If so, there is still the issue of valves contacting the pistons should the timing belt slip or break? Or have you done something to prevent this also?

Re:- your timing belt. I erroneously thought it might be an old belt and therefore recommended changing it as a precaution. But if the belt is very recently fitted, it should be fine to re-use.Your method of checking the belt tension is also fine. I assume (given your experience) you spun the tensioner and checked it for excessive free-play when you had the belt off. Most of the belt problems I used to see were either because the belt hadn't been replaced for way, way beyond the change interval or the tensioner bearing had failed (wear due to old age or bearing failure due to a leak from the water pump - hot coolant, especially containing anti-freeze can find it's way in and ruin the bearing - I suppose injudicious use of a steam-cleaner or hot water+detergent power washer could do the same).

I wouldn't lose any sleep about not having removed the little oil gallery plugs in the crankshaft to clean out any sludge. What builds up there is imho similar to what used to build up in the crank front pulley mounted centrifugal oil filters used on some of the older Fiats (the early 124 Spider and Coupe fitted with the 1438cc engine had this type of filter as well as the normal replacable cartridge filter). Some say this sludge is some of the additives being centrifuged out from the engine oil, it's soft and rubbery, gray to black in color, it doesn't contain any grit, when you think about it, the oil has passed through the filter before reaching the crank. So unless you had the crankshaft reground, no grit should find it's way into the oil ways. I knew someone who used to fill the crank oil passages with grease before sending it for re-grinding, then he just flushed out the oil passages before installing it - apparently, he had had an experience of a replaced crank oil passage sealing plug pop out, ruining the crank and was afraid to mess with crank oil plugs anymore.... As long as you had cleaner coming out of each rod bearing oil hole when you sprayed cleaner into it's adjacent crank main bearing hole, you should be fine to go - any remaining sludge should stay in place due to centrifugal action when the crank is spinning.

I, too have always applied oil or grease when fitting a seal and also put some oil or grease between the oil seal and dust seal lips - my thinking is that if the oil seal lip is doing it's job, it'll prevent any oil reaching the dust sealing lip, also, when fitting the seal, the oil seal lip may wipe some or all of the oil/grease from the shaft, leaving the dust seal lip running dry. Might be what happened in your case. Sometimes it's very hard to remember exactly what you did and if you did indeed do what you normally would - just wait 'till you get older...

I watched your latest video - I don't know if I would have thought to spray some water at the rear of the engine, well done - I probably would have just sprayed the drive belts at the front and given up and started pulling the transmission. But then again you did say that the noise seemed to be coming from the rear of the engine (I, of course, couldn't tell from the video). I got this idea of spraying water to locate a noise having noticed that squeaky suspension bushes often became silent if you drove on wet roads - later on, trying to determine if a fan belt was the source of a noise I was hearing, I tried some water (I didn't have any of that belt-dressing spray stuff).

In your latest video, where you're showing that no oil was coming out of the temporary extended breather hose (having deliberately over-filled the oil level), I noticed something odd about the sheet metal dust-shield that fits between the engine and transmission - the lower edge corner, the section with the dogleg bend on the driver's side is bent out of shape, did you bend it? you have to be careful with these dust shields, they can sometimes catch on the flywheel and cause a noise. (and I know you don't like odd noises ).

I don't think the absence of the baffle in the new oil pan would affect the crank rear oil seal - this seal is lubricated by the oil that normally leaks sideways from the rear main bearing. Plus, it probably also gets some oil due to splash when the car is being driven. However this oil can't and shouldn't reach the outer dust-sealing lip. Afaik, the baffle in the oil pan was an attempt to limit oil-surge during hard cornering which might result in the oil pump drawing in air.

In your video, the little nick that you put on the oil dipstick using a pair of dykes to show the temporary very high oil level (oil level with the bottom of the crank, in order to cause oil splash in the crankcase) is visible @ 16m19s in and again @ 16m20s.

What's the problem with the replacement radiator. I've repaired many rads.
Blockage - I fill the rad. with a caustic soda (drain cleaner?) solution and leave for c. 24 hrs. usually works.
Leaks - I locate and solder them (I might have to cut away a few fins for access)
Only rads. I won't usually bother with are those that have most of the cooling fins rusted away.
If you don't want to mess with your rad., are there any rad. repair specialists near to you? These guys can repair most rads or fit a new core, cheaper than a new rad.

Earlier, I was going to suggest, that in the absence of a working rad. you could join the top and bottom rad hoses with a length of pipe, or connect them to a container of water and thus be able to run the engine safely for a bit longer - you might even have been able to drive the car around the block, - in which case the crank oil seal noise might have disappeared.

As a matter of interest, what are you using to film your videos? (I've often thought of making a few videos of some of the techniques I use to repair things). How difficult is it to upload a video to a website (not Youtube).

Al.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #10
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Re: Bringing ‘er back to life

I turned down the lobe on the auxiliary shaft on a lathe to make it interference - free. Turning the engine over by hand allows it to turn without interference, when I deliberately turned the camshafts and crankshaft independently of each other. In other words, with valves open, the piston has room to move without damage. That doesn't take into account things like proper valve adjustment and piston / pin / con rod movement / stretch as the engine is running. So. maybe I shouldn't say interference-free. Maybe I'll call it interference-from-the-lobe-free

The radiator. Ugh the radiator. My original rad had some damage to the bottom tank. It had bulging from the inside, probably freezing damage. The edge of the tank was pushed out, and when that happened, it also took out the lip from the core. When you solder a tank to a core, there's a brass lip that goes all around the tank that you're actually soldering to. If that lip is torn off, there's nothing to solder to, and it's darn near impossible to fix. That's what happened to rad 1. I stupidly bought rad 2 from a junkyard. I spent $125 on a used radiator. A nice new aluminum one costs $225 - $250. That one had damage to the bottom tank as well, that the seller somehow forgot to mention. I thought I could just swap tanks, but the 2 rads, even though they were the same, were slightly different, so the tanks wouldn't swap over. So I had to cut out a piece of the tank from rad 1 to "Frankenstein a fix" on rad 2. It was an entirely infuriating process that took hours, but I now have a usable radiator. I should have just bought the new one.

The engine oil is now drained back to normal, vent back to normal, and it's running well, no odd noises. Today will be fixing electrical grounds to make my cooling fan work. I have power, and the thermostatic switch does it's job, which most likely means I have a bad ground. It's certainly easy to see those grounds are filthy. In fact, I'm sure I will spend more time that just today fixing that electrical system. It seems like everywhere I look, there's damage, neglect, wear, etc.

I have some work to do on the distributor (springs and vacuum advance unit), and to replace the driveshaft carrier bearing. Once that's done, I think it's time for a drive around the block

Oh, I almost forgot, good eye on the spacer between the bellhousing and engine. Yes I had bent it somehow. I thought I bent it back into submission, before I put it together, but I'll have another look.
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #11
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Re: Bringing ‘er back to life



I took it out for the first time yesterday. My daughter came along with me. The only problem I had was it kept popping out of 4th gear. Those gear dogs must be rounded off a bit, and I didn’t notice when I had the trans apart. Damn. I’m not sure if I can even drop the trans out the bottom or do I have to pull trans / engine again.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #12
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Re: Bringing ‘er back to life

Hi Ster1,

The trans. can indeed be removed from below, leaving the engine in situ - this is how a clutch renewal would normally be done.

If you have a hoist/lift and a trans. jack or a helper, it's straightforward, - on your own with the car on jackstands, it can be a bit of a struggle.

2 tips:-
When pulling the trans. rearwards to clear the clutch, you might find the trans. is blocked somewhere on the trans. tunnel - try rotating the trans. unit approx. 1/8 turn - I can't recall if that's 1/8 clockwise or counterclockwise but you'll figure it out. Iirc it's the bump (to provide room for the nose of the starter motor) on the bellhousing, that catches? (the possible need to be able to rotate the trans. unit makes use of an under-car trans. jack that relies on a strap/chain to secure the trans., a bit awkward).

You might find it useful to jack under the crank front pulley to get as much tilt on the engine before re-fitting the trans. You might find it helpful to engage a gear (iirc 3rd?) so that you can rotate the rubber coupling on the rear of the trans. to cause the input shaft to rotate, easing engagement with the clutch disc splines.

Iirc,
We used to just disconnect the exhaust twin downpipe from the cast iron manifold and tie it out of the way (you need to disconnect the exhaust pipe support bracket on the trans.).
I think we even left the cooling system connected, didn't even disconnect the top rad hose - but given your recent trials with sourcing a useable replacement radiator, I wouldn't blame you for removing the rad + hoses.
Remove the upper part of the gearshift, from inside the car.

Don't forget to disconnect the speedo cable and the wires to the reversing/back-up lamp switch on the trans.

Instead of disconnecting the driveshaft from the rubber coupling on the trans., the front end of the driveshaft is on splines and can be pulled out instead (just behind the rubber coupling, you'll see a grease zerk? and then a metal tubular cover with a rubber sealing collar - the d/shaft splines go into this). Watch out for the alignment > < marks when refitting the driveshaft, if you remove it this way.

Jumping out of 4th gear? Not unusual. I'm surprised you didn't see anything wrong when you had the trans. apart.

I suspect that the habit that many driver's have of resting their hand on the gearshift while driving, might contribute to this problem, or even cause it?

4th gear, as you know, is 'straight through the box' i.e. 1:1 ratio, where the input shaft is connected to the main shaft/output shaft - so any excessive endfloat can cause the problem.

Occasionally, one of those pesky circlips/snaprings that clamp the 'belleville' washers can pop off, especially if they weren't renewed or incorrectly installed (the 'square' edge on the clip/ring must be fitted outwards). This can result in excessive endfloat.

Also, as you have said, worn dog teeth.
Also a worn selector fork can initiate the problem by not fully engaging the gear when selected, leading to popping out of gear and consequent damage to the dog teeth.
Also, a worn input shaft bearing, but iirc, you renewed this?
Or wear on the nose of the main shaft where it fits into the needle roller bearing inside the input shaft.

When you fitted the replacement crank, did you check that the trans. input shaft/clutch shaft bearing (it's a sealed ball race) was still in place in the rear of the crank? If this was missing, the trans. input shaft might possibly wobble and cause 4th gear to pop out of engagement?

Regards,

Al.
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Last edited by F123C; 1 Week Ago at 02:08.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #13
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Re: Bringing ‘er back to life

Good tips all around, thank you. When I put the trans back together, there was a washer on the bench that I could not identify. I didn't remember it being there before, but I could not say with all certainty whether or not it was. Maybe it was a bellville, maybe not. I just don't know. I built the trans with the help of a manual that I got on Amazon that has really done nothing but let me down. It was quite poorly written, technically incomplete, and the pictures where laughable. By that, I mean some were photocopies of grainy black and white images from 30 years ago.

So... this is probably my neglect. But it's ok. The floor is rusted badly, even up the tunnel a bit, so this fall, I'm going to pull the engine and trans again to replace all that sheet metal down there. When I do that, I'll disassemble the trans again. This time, with the help of better documentation!

In the meantime, I'm scheduling a VIN inspection so I can start the titling process and drive it legally. I've had it out for quick spins a few times, and I'm pretty happy with it. Fun car to drive.
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