Hi everybody.

As above would a fiat FIRE engine series gearbox (in particular the 6 speed versions) mate to a Fiat sohc engine?

Do the bellhousings/ bolt patterns match up? Compatible clutches? etc

Just thought it may be interesting if one were to mate one to an X1/9.

Thanks in advance!

No they don't - more the pity too. The selector system is hugely superior on the FIRE boxes and they are a delight to work with by comparison. A diff-swap takes just a few minutes once the box is drained and the drive shafts removed. The output shafts just pop out with a little encouragement (although the retaining clips are prone to bending so a healthy supply is needed if swapping bits around a lot). The selector comes in a variety of different packages and they are pretty much interchangeable - just a few bolts on the top of the box.

You would need a custom bellhousing or adapter plate to make it work. The clutch would be just a case of getting one made or adapted. You'd need to work out how to mount the gearbox sling as well.

The biggest issue is getting a starter motor to fit. Can't remember the flywheel sizes but I'm pretty sure none of the FIRE engines use one similar to the old sohc so not only do you need a different flywheel you'd need a different starter and of course some way to mount it!

The second biggest issue is that they use cables instead of rods for the gear selection so a degree of adaptation is needed and of course the cables would arrive from the wrong side of the box and at the bottom instead of the top just to make things more interesting.

Most of the fire boxes I've seen use cups instead of flanges for the output shafts so you'd need to resolve that along with (probably) a set of custom drive shafts.

Staying on the subject, back in the days there was a 90hp Punto (cabrio only?), which I suspect had a 1.6 version of the SOHC. What sort of a gearbox did it have?

It used the Tipo box - same (more or less) as the Mk2 Uno. It fits, with the Uno/Punto flywheel but uses a top-shifter instead of the bottom shift of the ritmo box

Oh well that is a shame that the Fire box doesnt have any similarities. It would have made a great project.

Thankyou for the quick response

Regards,
Matt

Hi Jimbro,

Sorry to revive my old thread, but it comes to my attention that there may be more potential evidence that this swap may be possible with factory parts.
I was doing some research, and i found out the Fiat Stilo 1.6 uses the same base engine as our sohc (Its engine code is 182.b6.000).


Then i found this thread
https://www.fiatforum.com/stilo/272193-wil-6speed-box-fit-5speed-stilo.html


It states that if you change the belhousing of the 6 speed fire engine to the 1.6 bellhousing then the gearbox fits on the Stilo 1.6 engine.



Could you clarify that all of this would work? Would the Stilo 1.6 gearbox bellhousing fit the 128/138 code engines?

I know there is more work in a swap like this (gear linkages, starter motor, clutch actuation). But if the gearbox will actually bolt on with no hitches then the biggest part of the conversion is taken care of.


I await your response eagerly

Regards,
Matt

Also according to Wikipedia, the Stilo 1.6 was available with a 6 speed gearbox (albeit rare).

So in failing converting a fire gearbox, Would this rare Stilo 1.6 6speed be compatible?

Matt

Given what you've just posted and my lack of experience with 1.6 Stilos (I drove a 2.4 once does that count?) I would say yes on both points but I can't personally verify any of it. The 6-speed option wasn't favoured by Fiat UK for anything until recently but you'll find it more common elsewhere in Europe so it may pay to do some scouting around.

The ePER catalogue is a good place to start as you'll get part numbers (if it works and lets you in of course).

You'll find all kinds of interesting details in there!

I'll have to do the same now as I need a decent gearbox for my Dallara still and I've not found one worth mentioning at a reasonable price.

Ok so what ive found out on this ePER site (excuse me if this is all wrong, I couldnt really follow the site properly):

I was looking at 4 different gearboxes:

1.4 gearbox codes- M5 and M6 (i presume this is the 6 speed for the 1.4)
1.6 gearbox codes - M10 and M55, i cant tell if either one is a 6 speed


I found that all of the above gearboxes use the same gearbox casing (excellent if i can confirm that the M6 gearbox is a 6 speed).

But the M5/M6 gearboxes use a different bellhousing from the M10 and M55. And the M10 and M55 also using different bellhousings (part no.) from each other.


So both the 1.6 bellhousings bolt on to the "M6" gearbox casing (which i presume is 6 speed). But im not sure if these bellhousings are compatible with our earlier Sohc engines..

The point is that the 1.6 engine has the same mounting points for the bellhousing as the older sohc's so the bellhousings should fit but the gearboxes themselves are different.

I wouldn't assume anything about the M5/M6/M55 etc codes - these don't necessarily have any coherent meaning.

Despairingly (in typical Fiat fashion) the bellhousing is simply described as a transmission bracket making it less than obvious.

Well that is good news about the bellhousing being compatible

So how will we find out if the 6 speed gearboxes bolt up? And the input shaft is in the right position?

Ok, so i started a thread on the stilo section:

https://www.fiatforum.com/stilo/327806-stilo-1-6-6-speed-gearbox.html?p=3264779


We have confirmation that the 6 speed gearbox casing bolts to the 1.6 bellhousing.
Jimbro, youve already confirmed that the 1.6 bellhousing fits our family of engine.


I know there are still other possible hiccups. Driveshafts will need to be made, a custom clutch will probably be needed to be made to suit (i assume if the input shaft has a different spline?) and the gear cables will need to be lengthened. But these are all fairly straight forward.

My biggest concern is that will there be possible frame or wishbone mods needed to make the gearbox physically fit? Are they much longer than our 4 and 5 speed boxes?



So is this enough to go on? Do you think there is a real chance this gearbox can be fully compatible?

The fire box is actually a bit more compact - I have a 6-speed in my seicento and there really isn't a lot of space in there to start with. The difference between a 5 and a 6 speed is negligible from the outside.

The real beauty is that they have a variety of driveshaft attachments available and it is pretty easy to swap between them. I have cups on my sei but you can also get flanges instead.

The other great thing is that the shifter is actually separate from the box. It is a plate that sits on top of the box. You can pick from a pretty wide range of shifter arrangements to best suit. They all just bolt on (but check first as there are other variations of the fire box that I haven't checked).

There are also hydraulic and cable operated clutches. The cable system is a bit of a liability in my opinion...

So your saying its actually shorter than our gearboxes? And It wouldn't foul our wishbones and chassis rails?

Without the two side by side I wouldn't be 100% sure but the impression I got is that it is a tiny bit shorter but that could just be my dodgy memory. The fire gearbox is definitely designed to be more compact and lighter so I feel fairly confident on this one.

Any more progress made on this issue.

Where can output flanges be found which suit the x1/9 driveshafts? I understand the shafts would have to be adjusted in length.

To be honest it sounds like fitting a 1398 16v would be easier

Hi there. I'm more involved with the wrong wheel drive Fiats these days. My X-1/9 adventures included a Punto 90 (1.6 efi) powered one and a Delta HF Turbo powered car.

Look out for a Punto Cabriolet or Sporting 1.6.

I've just got hold of a Fiat Tempra 1.6 i.e. SPI engine which is the same as the Punto 90 (early sporting and convertible) I think and also fitted to some Lancias. Best part is it came with a good X1/9 box already bolted on!

Hardest bit fitting it will be adding a lambda sensor to the exhaust...

Drill a hole, weld a nut and retrofit. Easy as, but why? X-1/9's are pre-cat' so don't need all that guff.

If you're running an electric fuel pump try a pair of TDM850 carb's. I have a set and manifold for a Punto 75 that can be cut and made to fit the X-1/9 inlet manifold.