Technical Stilo 1.9jtd 8v 115 timing belt locking tool and HP fuel pump leak

[ruispeed3d]

Hey Everyone,

My car recently developed a diesel leak in the high pressure fuel pump and since i can't remove it without also removing the timing belt and the pulley attached to the pump, i was wondering if someone knows the appropriate timing lock tools for this specific engine and where could i buy them.

If i am correct it's leaking from one of the three compression heads in the pump, for my demise the one facing down, and i cant even point out specifically from where it's leaking since i can't even observe it.

But since all the fuel connections are made on top of the pump and none of them is leaking i can only assume a seal has gone bad in the pump.

Have any of you guys had any similar problem in the high pressure fuel pump? and how did you resolve it.

Thank you in advance,

Rui

 

[Ralf S.]

I've only suffered from a leaky connector on the pump, so I don't know about the rest of it... but when I looked, my conclusion was that it's probably easier to replace the whole pump rather than to try repairing it, since most of the aggro' is dismantling/replacing the cam-belt rather than the cost of a new pump.

The timing belt kits are pretty simple/cheap and you can find them on fleabay or similar. There's a thread about how it works here;

JTD Timing Belt tools. | FIAT Stilo

I bought a timing belt tool kit... :D It has a collar that clamps to the crank pulley and a long rod that screws into a locating bolt-hole. It has a little notch thing that locks the camshaft pulley (I presume the second pulley is just the injector pump and doesn't need locking). And it has a...

www.fiatforum.com

which also shows what the various pieces look like.

You only have to lock the crank, since there's only one camshaft that only has to be lined up with a pointer/mark on the engine.

The locking kit has a little slotted "tooth" piece, which bolts under one of the larger engine bolts and helps to lock the camshaft pulley.. but you only need to use it when you're unbolting the camshaft pulley. You only need to unbolt the camshaft pulley when you're replacing the water pump.

The fuel pump spins separately to the camshaft when there's no belt so it doesn't have to be aligned or synchronised with anything... just hook the belt over it and it's done.


Ralf S.

 

[ruispeed3d]

I've only suffered from a leaky connector on the pump, so I don't know about the rest of it... but when I looked, my conclusion was that it's probably easier to replace the whole pump rather than to try repairing it, since most of the aggro' is dismantling/replacing the cam-belt rather than the cost of a new pump.

The timing belt kits are pretty simple/cheap and you can find them on fleabay or similar. There's a thread about how it works here;

JTD Timing Belt tools. | FIAT Stilo

I bought a timing belt tool kit... :D It has a collar that clamps to the crank pulley and a long rod that screws into a locating bolt-hole. It has a little notch thing that locks the camshaft pulley (I presume the second pulley is just the injector pump and doesn't need locking). And it has a...

www.fiatforum.com

which also shows what the various pieces look like.

You only have to lock the crank, since there's only one camshaft that only has to be lined up with a pointer/mark on the engine.

The locking kit has a little slotted "tooth" piece, which bolts under one of the larger engine bolts and helps to lock the camshaft pulley.. but you only need to use it when you're unbolting the camshaft pulley. You only need to unbolt the camshaft pulley when you're replacing the water pump.

The fuel pump spins separately to the camshaft when there's no belt so it doesn't have to be aligned or synchronised with anything... just hook the belt over it and it's done.


Ralf S.

Thank you Ralf, once again, for your valuable information and availability.

i thought of replacing the pump but around here one would cost me around 350€(~290£) and since the timing is involved it would be wise to replace it with a new complete kit.

Mine is already old enough to be replaced so if i was gonna send it to a mechanic to do it, it would cost me far more(considering my country's average cost per hour of labour) than what i was comfortable paying for at this specific moment.

So here i am trying myself to kill two birds with one stone in the hopes of saving a fair bit of money XD and of course gaining the experience that comes with it. Changing a timing belt is somewhat the last step on my car fixing ability, discarding of course anything internally in the engine, that's another level.

One more question if i may, how do you keep track of the crankshaft position when you have to remove the locking tool to remove the old belt and fit the new if it, for some reason, decides to rotate a bit and you loose track of it's original position. i saw somewhere that the mark on the pulley needs to be aligned roughly 9 o'clock. is it correct?

I'm guessing rotating the crankshaft again until the locking tool fits in it's position/notch might do the trick but i can never be too sure.

Thank you

Rui

 

[Ralf S.]

The repair kit for the fuel pump looks like just a bag of new seals rather than new parts, so the pump could just have a dodgy seal rather than anything worn out. It may be worth trying to unbolt any pipe/connection that is accessible and inspecting/replacing the copper washer or O-ring etc. that's leaking. If it doesn't work, or you can't fix the leaky one with the pump in place, then you're no worse off.

Cambelt... the crank pulley markings are a little bit deceptive.

On mine, there is a cut-out/slot at the 6 o'clock position on the engine casing which I thought was something to do with the timing, and the pulley has an index notch moulded in it, which I thought would line up with this slot... But the slot seems to have nothing to do with the timing and the notch on the pulley points up at 10 o'clock (or more like 9:30) when the crank is at TDC .. and there is no other mark or index there for it to "point" to..

I concluded that the crank can only be aligned by fitting the tool on it.. although on mine, I've painted a mark on the casing to line up with the pulley mark, just to make it easier to check at a glance, without having to refit the tool.

In reality, it's very hard to rotate the pulley by accident, so it's not as tricky or risky as it sounds. The biggest aggro' is the tensioner, since this is a critical piece, impossible to see what you're doing and difficult to lever into position without the proper tool. I usually manage to lever it using a pry bar pivoting on any handy bit of engine but it's only "worked first time" once.

Make sure the pointer is pointing at the hole. I usually turn the engine over by hand twice, to see what it's doing, and then if it looks okay, just start the engine and then more or less immediately kill it.. then re-check the pointer. The pointer tends to go "loose" after you turn the engine over, so I try to point it slightly "tight" so that hopefully it aligns with the hole perfectly after you rotated the engine a few times.

Use a phone to take a photo of the pointer.. it's the easiest way I've found to look at the pointer "face on". Otherwise it's tricky to see.

I never had any luck with the lines on the belt lining up with the marks on the cam cover and pulley etc. that you might also read about. The OE belt lines up with the marks, if I remember correctly the one time I had one... but on any after-market belt that fits several engines, the lines never both line up. The lines are meant to confirm that the cam and crank are timed correctly in relation to each other.. but if you have the tool and you line up the marks on the pulley and the cases, then that's the better way to check.

If you remove the camshaft pulley to replace the water pump (pump can't come out otherwise) make sure that you lock the pulley using the rectangular tool with the pointer/tooth on it. If you don't, the camshaft can rotate and the valves touch the piston. This isn't serious in itself (static) but the "unbolting" force that is turning the cam pulley, will be pressing the valves against the piston and so can bend them. So the camshaft mustn't move (although otherwise a bit of movement that doesn't make the valves touch the piston isn't serious.. you can just rotate the cam back into position a few mm. afterwards).

The only hazards are that the (M12) bolt you use to tighten this "tooth" tool screws into aluminium, so when you tighten it to keep the tool from moving, be careful not to strip the thread. The other problem (my car suffered) is that when you unscrew the camshaft pulley bolt, the force required will put pressure on the locating dowel on the back of the camshaft pulley. The nut holding it is very tight and the tooth tool (which you don't want to over-tighten) might move a bit, allowing the pulley to rotate, so the force can damage the dowel.

A rounded off, or cracked dowel will allow the pulley to move a few degrees on the locating key which will make your cam timing a little bit "off". On mine the "free movement" range was almost 1 tooth, so it wouldn't damage the engine .. but the car ran better when I got it spot on, rather than slightly out. In the end I got fed up with having to re-adjust the timing after I'd put it all together.. so I bought a new pulley... and with a nice, "square shouldered" dowel it locates precisely.

Ralf S.

 

[ruispeed3d]

The repair kit for the fuel pump looks like just a bag of new seals rather than new parts, so the pump could just have a dodgy seal rather than anything worn out. It may be worth trying to unbolt any pipe/connection that is accessible and inspecting/replacing the copper washer or O-ring etc. that's leaking. If it doesn't work, or you can't fix the leaky one with the pump in place, then you're no worse off.

Cambelt... the crank pulley markings are a little bit deceptive.

On mine, there is a cut-out/slot at the 6 o'clock position on the engine casing which I thought was something to do with the timing, and the pulley has an index notch moulded in it, which I thought would line up with this slot... But the slot seems to have nothing to do with the timing and the notch on the pulley points up at 10 o'clock (or more like 9:30) when the crank is at TDC .. and there is no other mark or index there for it to "point" to..

I concluded that the crank can only be aligned by fitting the tool on it.. although on mine, I've painted a mark on the casing to line up with the pulley mark, just to make it easier to check at a glance, without having to refit the tool.

In reality, it's very hard to rotate the pulley by accident, so it's not as tricky or risky as it sounds. The biggest aggro' is the tensioner, since this is a critical piece, impossible to see what you're doing and difficult to lever into position without the proper tool. I usually manage to lever it using a pry bar pivoting on any handy bit of engine but it's only "worked first time" once.

Make sure the pointer is pointing at the hole. I usually turn the engine over by hand twice, to see what it's doing, and then if it looks okay, just start the engine and then more or less immediately kill it.. then re-check the pointer. The pointer tends to go "loose" after you turn the engine over, so I try to point it slightly "tight" so that hopefully it aligns with the hole perfectly after you rotated the engine a few times.

Use a phone to take a photo of the pointer.. it's the easiest way I've found to look at the pointer "face on". Otherwise it's tricky to see.

I never had any luck with the lines on the belt lining up with the marks on the cam cover and pulley etc. that you might also read about. The OE belt lines up with the marks, if I remember correctly the one time I had one... but on any after-market belt that fits several engines, the lines never both line up. The lines are meant to confirm that the cam and crank are timed correctly in relation to each other.. but if you have the tool and you line up the marks on the pulley and the cases, then that's the better way to check.

If you remove the camshaft pulley to replace the water pump (pump can't come out otherwise) make sure that you lock the pulley using the rectangular tool with the pointer/tooth on it. If you don't, the camshaft can rotate and the valves touch the piston. This isn't serious in itself (static) but the "unbolting" force that is turning the cam pulley, will be pressing the valves against the piston and so can bend them. So the camshaft mustn't move (although otherwise a bit of movement that doesn't make the valves touch the piston isn't serious.. you can just rotate the cam back into position a few mm. afterwards).

The only hazards are that the (M12) bolt you use to tighten this "tooth" tool screws into aluminium, so when you tighten it to keep the tool from moving, be careful not to strip the thread. The other problem (my car suffered) is that when you unscrew the camshaft pulley bolt, the force required will put pressure on the locating dowel on the back of the camshaft pulley. The nut holding it is very tight and the tooth tool (which you don't want to over-tighten) might move a bit, allowing the pulley to rotate, so the force can damage the dowel.

A rounded off, or cracked dowel will allow the pulley to move a few degrees on the locating key which will make your cam timing a little bit "off". On mine the "free movement" range was almost 1 tooth, so it wouldn't damage the engine .. but the car ran better when I got it spot on, rather than slightly out. In the end I got fed up with having to re-adjust the timing after I'd put it all together.. so I bought a new pulley... and with a nice, "square shouldered" dowel it locates precisely.

Ralf S.

Thank you again Ralf.

about the fuel pump, the problem is that i don't have any space to work on it, the pump is tucked in inside a black, metal structural frame of some sort, in which it also bolts on, so my access to any bolt or seal in the pump is pretty much impossible. piping wise all connections are leak free so my guess is almost 100% on a dodgy seal.

I saw a video the other day about changing the timing on this engine and they also had that 6 o'clock cut-out and they warned about it being deceiving and having nothing to do with the alignment of the engine, so i guess that checks out and everything i saw checks out with everything you said

But i wasn't aware that not-OEM belts could not line up with the marks and that left me worried. If that happened, how would i know if i leave too much slack on the belt between pulleys or if i leave it too tight, what i mean is if i leave it one tooth short (leaving the tooth matching the white line behind the pulley mark) the belt might stay loose between the camshaft and the crankshaft pulleys...Am thinking this straight or am i making a problem that does not exist?

Unfortunately i would love to also change the water pump because my car ran, somewhere in the past, without antifreeze (only WATER) for some time which rusted a bit the inside walls of the engine, fortunately not much because i can only observe light brown coloring and no flaking.

i know for a fact the belt has been changed when i bought the car but i'm not too sure about the water pump so i must replace it too. Could i possibly use this tool in the attached picture to secure the pulley while unscrewing the bolt? That tooth tool doesn't seen to lock the pulley too firmly.

Thanks you in advance

Rui

 

[Ralf S.]

Yes.. I had a look at my pump.. it looks like you can't do much with it it situ except unplug the plastic hoses.

You don't need to worry about the belt marks. The camshaft pulley is lined up with the pointer on the cam cover, and the crank is locked.

The other pulley (on the fuel pump) rotates freely, it's not connected or timed relative to the camshaft... so if the belt between the pulleys is slack, the tensioner will pull it tight. The pump pulley spins/moves very easily... you can almost forget about it, as long as the belt is on the pulley.

That tool looks like it will do the job. When I do mine, I use a combination of the little pointer tool and occasionally I used a screwdriver through the pulley, to help keep the force off the pointer tool. I found the bolt where it attaches is slightly stripped and won't take too much tightening.. which probably led to the pulley locating dowel being damaged. Anything that stops the pulley rotating will do, as long as the valves don't move onto the piston.. they probably don't want to support the force of the pulley bolt being undone.

I would change the pump.. I tried to run a pump over two cam-belts once on an Alfa Twin Spark. The OE pump was superb but the one I replaced it with was less superb and didn't last two cam-belts. The pump has a very skinny O-ring which tends to snag on the machined face of the housing.. so it can get nipped up. Don't throw out your old O-ring.. if you nip the new one, the old one will do another tour..

There's also one bolt on the pump that bolts into an open water channels. I think it's the one on the left as you look at it.. but you'll see the threaded part it screws into when you remove the pump. You need to use some coolant-resistant sealant on the shank of the bolt, otherwise it'll get washed away and the coolant will leak. I use a regular silicone sealant on the shaft of the screw, plus some more around the hole on the underside of the pump.. since if it leaks, the only way to fix it is to do it all again. I've done it all again a few times, as you can tell..

But it's not a complicated job.. it's a single camshaft and everything lines up without too much drama. Just the tensioner tension is the bit I haven't worked out a reliable technique for..


Ralf S.