Technical Radio White Noise after 20 minutes

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Technical Radio White Noise after 20 minutes

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pads69

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Joined
Sep 19, 2022
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Leeds
We have a problem with our radio whilst driving. The m/h is an AutoSleeper Broadway Duo 2016, but I think it is a FIAT issue.
It has been there since day one, but FIAT & AutoSleeper have blamed each other, and now I am fed up and need a solution.
The problem -
After about 20-30 minutes driving, the radio signal (FM and DAB) starts to develop white noise which increases quickly to a level where listening is impossible.
This does not affect music played from my iPod through the 'radio'.
So what have I tried -
  • Turned the radio off and on - noise still there.
  • Pulled in and turned vehicle engine off (key out) and back on again (but not started) - noise still there.
  • Changed the aerials FM & DAB to screen ones - noise still there.
  • Replaced the radio (on a temporary basis) with a JVC one (from previous vehicle) - noise still there.
It does not happen when parked up and listening to radio (engine obviously off)
The problem only goes away if radio has been off and the vehicle engine has been stopped for some time.
Any suggestions would be appreciated
Peter
 
Hi pads69

This one is quite a puzzle. I am a bit surprised that you hear much white noise with DAB. As it is a digital system, reception tends to flip from very good to non existent as the signal to noise ratio drops, with only a pretty narrow window of burbly broken up reception between the two conditions. FM on the other hand will exhibit white noise over a larger window between good and no reception. Clearly, the audio stages are OK as you can play the ipod successfully. If it affects more than one radio, it suggests the cause is external to the radio but associated with the engine or something only powered when the ignition is on. When you turn off the engine, some engine management systems carry on being powered up for a minute or two but do eventually go to sleep. Habitation electronics might be on most of the time, though some functions are normally disabled once the engine is running.

Two things spring to mind:

Possibility 1: Part of the engine management system is radiating a high level of radio noise (which it shouldn't) which is being picked up by the radio antennas. The gradual rather than sudden onset and the time delay to me suggest that this effect is only happening once something has warmed up, and if it takes 20 minutes that "something" has quite a high thermal mass. I can only suggest that you find a small battery powered FM portable radio and telescope the antenna down to just one section and tune it to a weak-ish station. Moving it around the engine bay with the engine hot and running might help you to physically pinpoint the source of maximum radiated noise, though be aware that cable looms are a favourite for radiation of interference generated by items they connect to.

Possibility 2: Something in the battery charging circuit starts generating more noise as the charge state alters in the batteries. You would normally expect that to stop immediately the engine stops and the alternator therefore ceases charging. However, a modern setup with a Battery to Battery (B2B) converter may carry on after the engine has stopped, it all depends on the design of the habitation electronics package which is often bought in by the MH converter from a 3rd party supplier. It would be worth experimenting with the settings of the habitation battery controller (including shutting it right down) to see if it makes a difference. If you do indeed have a B2B converter, by design it is very rapidly switching tens of amps of current which is a recipe for generating high levels of radio noise. Radiation will take place by the associated wiring acting as an antenna, and it then only has to travel a metre or two before it gets into the radio antennas. Although the B2B will undoubtedly have some internal filtering, this may be insufficient. Try "sniffing" around the B2B and its wiring with the portable FM radio. If the B2B is the culprit, it may help to place several ferrite suppressor toroid cores over the input and output DC cables (these cores are split to allow them to be clipped over without disconnecting the wires). Their effect is to make the cables much less efficient as radiating antenna whilst not affecting them at DC. You might have seen something similar as the "lump" on the wires of phone chargers etc.

I don't know if there is a forum for Autosleepers owners, but if this is a design problem rather than sometjing with a fault one might expect other owners to have suffered the same thing.

As a final thought, it's just possible that the noise is being conducted along any of the wiring into the radio, rather than being received "off air" by the antennas. Although such noise should be rejected by built filtering within the radio, I guess if its at a really high level it could still break through. However it seems very unlikely that two radios of different design would be affected in the same way. In this situation the portable FM radio mentioned above will be unaffected as it has its own isolated batteries so there is no conduction path. Conducted noise like this is fairly straightforward to fix by means of extra filtering next to the radio.
 
Thanks for your suggestions.
As easy options I'm going to try the ferrite cores and filtering.
Hopefully I'll get these fitted before we go away again on Thursday.
And test again! Fingers crossed.
 
One question though - do I put the ferrite cores round both +ve & -ve together or seperately?

Thanks Peter
 
Hi Peter

If you can get a large core around a positive and negative pair (i.e. flow and return) the DC currents will be equal and opposite so there is less tendency of the core to become magnetically saturated by the DC, which would reduce its effectiveness. So as a minimum, one large core around the input pair to the B2B, and one large core on the output pair. If you decide to double up on cores, they are more effective if spaced apart by a foot or two.

Sorry, I don't have time at the moment to recommend a specific type, but what I have in mind are roughly an inch in outer diameter and one and a half inches long. As a rule of thumb, the hole in the middle should be no more than about one and a half times the diameter of the cable(s) its fitted to.
 
One thing worth trying is to use a portable FM radio in the van and see if you get the same noise problem.
If you do get the same noise then you might be able to trace where the noise is coming from by moving around
inside and outside the van, not easy but might work.
Also try an AM radio and do the same thing.
My main suspicion is noise from the ECU's which I experience on a 2007 Ducato.
This manifests in the main radio audio 'appearing' to pulse and also a noticable lack of sensitivity when receiving.
Had a handheld radio in the van, no problem even with a poor antenna, but moving round found most of the
noise was coming from the ECU under the bonnet. Most of the noise went when the van was switchec off, but still
some noises in the 50 to 100MHZ band, which covers FM radio but not DAB.
 
Could the interference be coming from a smart alternator? I can’t think of anything else that may alter 20-30 mins after start up.
 
Just had a thought (probably silly idea).
Could it be in the fridge (auto 3way). The DC part may just kick in after 20 minutes when temp raises. Then it would still be on when engine was turned back on.
I know - silly idea.
Peter
 
Just had a thought (probably silly idea).
Could it be in the fridge (auto 3way). The DC part may just kick in after 20 minutes when temp raises. Then it would still be on when engine was turned back on.
I know - silly idea.
Peter
Can only speak for the Thetford type fridge, but suspect others work the same way.
If you have the fridge in 'Auto', and fridge has been left on mains overnight and down to temperature when you start driving it will switch to 12volt and might not power to 12 volt straight away until the temperature goes out of preset limits.
.
But, if the fridge is running on 12 volt it should switch to gas or mains electric when you stop the engine. This (on a Thetford) happens almost immediately.
The 12 volt supply is really only for when the engine is running and supplying power. The fridge will draw about 20 ampere so would drain the leisure battery quickly if it stayed on 12 volt with the engine off.

To prove this is or is not the problem, switch the fridge completely off and see if the problem is still there.

One query, do you have any solar panels fitted ?. Have seen low level interference from the charge regulator on one of the cheap Chinese controllers, but do not think there would be enough energy to cause the interference you have.
 
A bit of an update - we've been away for the weekend, and I managed to some testing.
I fitted supressor and filters as suggested (by the way there is no B2B).
However the problem did not go away - in fact it came on after about 5 minutes!
I know it's not the fridge as I turned it off whilst the noise was present (still there).
Tried the portable radio whilst the noise was present - not too conclusive as sometimes the noise was on both but not always.

Anyone any more ideas?
 
Hi

If you are getting the same noise on the portable radio, that does at least confirm that the noise is radiated (i.e. can be picked up "off air") rather than being directly conducted along the wiring.

If you move the portable radio around, it ought to be possible to pinpoint the region where noise is strongest, which may indicate the item which is the noise source. Unfortunately, it is normally the wiring that's connected to the noise source that acts as a transmitting antenna, so the location may be vaguer than one would like.

The only other suggestion I have is to temporarily completely disable the habitation electronics, i.e. disconnect the charging feed from the vehicle and disconnect one end of the habitation battery. If the noise remains, you will know that it is associated with the Fiat vehicle. If it stops, then you need to shift focus towards the habitation electrics.
 
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