Ok so I'm looking at buying a Fiat Panda as a 'winter car' to get me to & from work. I normally ride to work but as the weather gets colder, & I'm no spring chicken, is there anything I should be looking out for in particular? As I said I'm only after a basic model, nothing special. Got around 2K to spend. Any help would be apricated.
General Looking for advice before buying.
- Thread starter alan01256
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General Looking for advice before buying.
Probably the same advice for any buyer of a "cheap"? second hand car or even an expensive second hand car.
1. If possible take some one with you, preferably with mechanical knowledge, but even without,as it helps as it puts potentially dodgy sellers on the wrong foot when asking questions.
2. Inspect car from cold so you can see how easily it starts and any funny noises.
3. Give it a good long road test so it gets fully warmed up, checking clutch operation and gears, also brakes. Try and include some faster stretches also.
4. When back from road test open bonnet and check for any leaks. strange smells, overheating etc.
5.Make sure it has a long or preferably full Mot for two reasons, if something dangerous is discovered you may have redress through DVLA putting pressure on the seller or test station, but also, if for what ever reason you decide it is not the car for you, a long Mot means you have a chance of unloading it without spending more money on getting a new Mot.
This advice is based on fifty years in the motor trade checking cars for my customers and is as applicable for a private sale, back street garage or main dealer. Remember dodgy sellers can come in suits just as well as an oily pair of jeans!!!
what you look for depends on the
Age of car
Whether it’s a private or garage sale
And if you do your own service and repairs
I good starting place is to look through the MOT history
For £1000+ there shouldn’t be ent mention of body corrosion
The same advisories year in year out can be a red flag for lack of maintenance.
Age of car
Whether it’s a private or garage sale
And if you do your own service and repairs
I good starting place is to look through the MOT history
For £1000+ there shouldn’t be ent mention of body corrosion
The same advisories year in year out can be a red flag for lack of maintenance.
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If there is one check you need to make, it's the back axle.
They are prone to rusting up quite badly, especially around the lower spring seats.
It's easy to get a look at it, just bend down and look up from the rear of the car with a torch.
At your price point expect to see it looking a bit scabby but serious rust will be pretty obvious.
Aftermarket replacements are available pretty cheaply, but it's a bit of a job to replace and could write a cheap car off.
Another small problem is the engine sump.
The sump pan is also prone to rusting. It's very thin, poorly painted and in the firing line of all the water and road grit.
With any of ours I always wiped the sump over with an oil rag when I changed the oil, which seemed enough to help keep it in decent condition.
Again, easy to check by looking up under the front.
One other thing on the test drive, walk away from anything with a noisy or iffy gearbox/clutch.
Some onwers have had problems with worn input shaft bearings.
On the bright side, a standard Panda on winter tyres is a useful tool in winter.
We ran our old 2007 Active like this a few years until we swapped it for a newer 4x4 Twinair.
Just slung a cheap set of Sava Eskimo winter tyres on it and it handled the snowy and icy roads brilliantly.
They are prone to rusting up quite badly, especially around the lower spring seats.
It's easy to get a look at it, just bend down and look up from the rear of the car with a torch.
At your price point expect to see it looking a bit scabby but serious rust will be pretty obvious.
Aftermarket replacements are available pretty cheaply, but it's a bit of a job to replace and could write a cheap car off.
Another small problem is the engine sump.
The sump pan is also prone to rusting. It's very thin, poorly painted and in the firing line of all the water and road grit.
With any of ours I always wiped the sump over with an oil rag when I changed the oil, which seemed enough to help keep it in decent condition.
Again, easy to check by looking up under the front.
One other thing on the test drive, walk away from anything with a noisy or iffy gearbox/clutch.
Some onwers have had problems with worn input shaft bearings.
On the bright side, a standard Panda on winter tyres is a useful tool in winter.
We ran our old 2007 Active like this a few years until we swapped it for a newer 4x4 Twinair.
Just slung a cheap set of Sava Eskimo winter tyres on it and it handled the snowy and icy roads brilliantly.
I agree re checking on Gov Mot website as a guide to general condition before even going to inspect a car (one of the reasons some sellers blank out their number plate, though not the only one) It shouldn't happen but I have seen cars regularly fly through Mots and then next time fail abysmally due to a different Mot tester's opinion.
Most salesmen will consider a £2k car a banger these days not good enough to put on their forecourt, often sold as "part exchanges or trade sales" with no warranty "sold as seen" so really do your homework.
I would say, of the around 200 + cars and motorbikes I have owned over the last 54 years, the fingers of one hand were vehicles around £2k and even being able to do your own repairs doesn't stop the occasional mistaken purchase.
High price and going to a large national well known franchise is no guarantee, even recently I inspected a car just over a year old on a forecourt, the car was in lovely condition, however the very polite female sales person was slow in producing the V5c document saying it was at their other dealership and despite us asking the relevant questions, to which she assured us it was one of their managers vehicles and the mileage was incurred driving across the country to their other dealerships. When it became apparent to her the sale wasn't going to happen without us looking at the V5c she confessed the car had been registered with a large well known hire company and must have had numerous drivers in that time!!!
Another time looking at a fairly new expensive Honda on a dealers forecourt I noticed "jig" marks on the sills indicating it had been in a serious accident and had to have chassis straightened.
So whether private or garage seller they are all capable of telling you "black is white" to do a deal!!
Having had our 1.2 for four years now I would have no hesitation in getting another
My preference would be for the 'old' pre-VVT 1.2 60hp engines from around 2010 when they dropped into the £30 UK tax bracket. Just paid £165 for tax on my 2004 car, goes up every year...
Personally I would avoid the automatic DuaLogic (seals deteriorate with age), and I would prefer the standard air-con (or no air-con) with manual controls over the fiddly and troublesome climate control fitted to top of the range models.
Apart from the rear axle and sump pan (easily rust-proofed if they're not too bad), the 169 Panda is well protected from rust and the engines are tough.
My only hesitation would be that there are some cheap components that are at the end of their design life at 10+ years old. Which is fine if you can do the work yourself as, well, the components are cheap, but labour costs could add up if you take it to a garage. Front lower suspension arms are almost consumables as they contain the ball joint and rubber bushes that take a lot of wear.
Other gripes are: it's quite noisy on anything other than a perfect road surface, and I'm amongst those who have noticed high tyre wear, so I'd advise checking the tyres on a potential purchase for uneven wear.
My preference would be for the 'old' pre-VVT 1.2 60hp engines from around 2010 when they dropped into the £30 UK tax bracket. Just paid £165 for tax on my 2004 car, goes up every year...
Personally I would avoid the automatic DuaLogic (seals deteriorate with age), and I would prefer the standard air-con (or no air-con) with manual controls over the fiddly and troublesome climate control fitted to top of the range models.
Apart from the rear axle and sump pan (easily rust-proofed if they're not too bad), the 169 Panda is well protected from rust and the engines are tough.
My only hesitation would be that there are some cheap components that are at the end of their design life at 10+ years old. Which is fine if you can do the work yourself as, well, the components are cheap, but labour costs could add up if you take it to a garage. Front lower suspension arms are almost consumables as they contain the ball joint and rubber bushes that take a lot of wear.
Other gripes are: it's quite noisy on anything other than a perfect road surface, and I'm amongst those who have noticed high tyre wear, so I'd advise checking the tyres on a potential purchase for uneven wear.
I agree with @Goudrons re the gearbox input shaft bearing, I've changed mine and I suspect it's a weak point on these gearboxes - plenty of reports on here. Mine had failed before 100k miles.
I don't know if it would cause oil to reach the clutch (my clutch was slipping due to oil contamination, but my crankshaft main rear seal had also failed).
Cars could probably soldier on with a failed bearing, but it's something to be aware of as it deforms the input shaft seal and lets oil into the bell housing. If the ball bearings break free they can do a fair bit of damage to the gearbox. The gearbox has to come apart to change the bearing and seal.
A worn bearing will typically rattle in neutral and go quiet with the clutch depressed. There's also an inspection hole in the top of the bell housing. It'll be dirty, but if it's dry and powdery then all well, if it's wet and oily with the strong smell gear oil has, the bearing and seal have failed.
I don't know if it would cause oil to reach the clutch (my clutch was slipping due to oil contamination, but my crankshaft main rear seal had also failed).
Cars could probably soldier on with a failed bearing, but it's something to be aware of as it deforms the input shaft seal and lets oil into the bell housing. If the ball bearings break free they can do a fair bit of damage to the gearbox. The gearbox has to come apart to change the bearing and seal.
A worn bearing will typically rattle in neutral and go quiet with the clutch depressed. There's also an inspection hole in the top of the bell housing. It'll be dirty, but if it's dry and powdery then all well, if it's wet and oily with the strong smell gear oil has, the bearing and seal have failed.
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About the only thing I can add to this is that the metal water pipe that runs along the front of the engine behind the exhaust down pipe/Cat is prone to rusting out and leaking when it gets old. It also has a rubber O ring seal where it plugs into the back of the water pump on the cylinder block. It's quite pricey for a genuine one but much cheaper on line - I got ours from Shop4parts at a very reasonable price.
Mike, I see you talking about "trade" cars, "sold as seen". I used to buy trade ins from the big main dealers on that basis many years ago - went in late on a Sunday or first thing Monday morning to get the weekend trade ins and many great bargains were to be had. If you bought one you accepted that from the moment the sale was agreed the car became your problem no matter what you subsequently found to be wrong with it! This all stopped some years ago up here. They won't sell to non trade in this way anymore. Something to do with trade descriptions and other regs as, even if sold as seen the seller still has the right to return the vehicle and get a full refund if they want to be "awkward" about vehicle condition. Pity because the "big boys" aren't usually interested in anything much over 5 years old and selling to people like me saved them the auction costs and probably they could make a wee bit more from the like of me than passing them on to used car lots.
Mike, I see you talking about "trade" cars, "sold as seen". I used to buy trade ins from the big main dealers on that basis many years ago - went in late on a Sunday or first thing Monday morning to get the weekend trade ins and many great bargains were to be had. If you bought one you accepted that from the moment the sale was agreed the car became your problem no matter what you subsequently found to be wrong with it! This all stopped some years ago up here. They won't sell to non trade in this way anymore. Something to do with trade descriptions and other regs as, even if sold as seen the seller still has the right to return the vehicle and get a full refund if they want to be "awkward" about vehicle condition. Pity because the "big boys" aren't usually interested in anything much over 5 years old and selling to people like me saved them the auction costs and probably they could make a wee bit more from the like of me than passing them on to used car lots.
Just been working on a nice Panda with a bad problem. Both sills have got rust in at the rear, and it looks pretty bad. Not usual for a well-looked after Panda, but it does happen. This one looks like it has been jacked up on the seam on both sides, which has deformed the sill and allowed water in. Probably happened quite early in the cars life, as the rot is probably as bad as any I have seen, affecting both inner and outer sills for nearly a foot on each side. In my view it's a breaker. Shame.
Worth checking on any prospective purchase.
Worth checking on any prospective purchase.
Sills appears to be date related
Pretty much every 05 and earlier are patched here
Comes up on old MOTs much more often than the rear axle
Never did get to the bottom of why a few axles corrode they all go scabby but normally not that serious
I have had a 05, 06 and 10
05 and 06 sills both went one side one year the other side the following year that pretty consistent 05 followed by 06 but never an axle
When the sills go it’s not worth keep much longer in my opinion. I know some disagree
My 55-plate 1.2 and 07 plate 100HP sills are like new.
Had an 04 with iffy sills about 5 years ago. Repaired it, and it's still going strong, but I probably wouldn't have bothered with it now.
The rusty one in earlier post is a 59-plate. Nice paint, interior, engine. Clutch is probably just about dead, and has some suspension clunk's. If sills were fine it'd be a no-brainer to swap the clutch. As it is, not worth cost of clutch plus 2 sill repairs, plus assorted bits for MOT.
Still, I need some parts, so I'll make an offer for it to break.
Had an 04 with iffy sills about 5 years ago. Repaired it, and it's still going strong, but I probably wouldn't have bothered with it now.
The rusty one in earlier post is a 59-plate. Nice paint, interior, engine. Clutch is probably just about dead, and has some suspension clunk's. If sills were fine it'd be a no-brainer to swap the clutch. As it is, not worth cost of clutch plus 2 sill repairs, plus assorted bits for MOT.
Still, I need some parts, so I'll make an offer for it to break.
Any of my customers whose cars got to the stage of needing a patch for an Mot I strongly advised them it was time to get a newer car as each subsequent year they would need more patching to the point of being uneconomical to repair.
Obviously when you have a classic and it can be rebuilt in a dry workshop with quality new panels and carefully rust treated etc. it is a different case.
Although when working for a garage years ago we had a customer with a bright red 1966 E Type convertable that he claimed to be worth many thousands, but once you saw the underside the welded patches resembled a patchwork quilt!
Our old Felicity (1992 Panda Parade) was a perfect example of that Mike. Our youngest boy learned to drive in her and then she became our "town car". We had her for over 20 years and I got really emotionally attached to her - bought her when she was just 2 years old. For about the last 6 years we owned her I was welding bits into her every year. for the last 3 years the floor itself started rusting out and I got a welder guy I know to do the repairs as it was all getting too much for me. The last time he welded her he made me promise not to bring her back the next year as he really couldn't find any good metal left to weld to!Any of my customers whose cars got to the stage of needing a patch for an Mot I strongly advised them it was time to get a newer car as each subsequent year they would need more patching to the point of being uneconomical to repair.
Obviously when you have a classic and it can be rebuilt in a dry workshop with quality new panels and carefully rust treated etc. it is a different case.
Although when working for a garage years ago we had a customer with a bright red 1966 E Type convertable that he claimed to be worth many thousands, but once you saw the underside the welded patches resembled a patchwork quilt!
irc mentions above about damage caused by jacking on the sills and this is a very prevalent and serious problem which is caused, in my opinion, because few cars now a days have box sections which are strong enough to withstand being jacked up on. Consequently, having been "bitten", many will jack on the sills with the result that paint and anti corrosion treatments are compromised. Another thing I don't like are accident repaired vehicles where they've been in anything more than a "fender bender" as they are likely to have suffered sprung seems somewhere which then lets moisture penetrate and, a couple of years later, serious rust takes hold.
By the way, whilst on this subject, don't even think about buying a car which has been in a flood. I know that's long been good advice but now, with the multiplicity of electronic connectors and control units in modern vehicles, Water damage and subsequent corrosion of connectors and circuitry can become an ongoing nightmare as you track down fault after fault.
Serious engine problems are rare normally more evident when cold at low revs. From cold it should fire up on the first few turns quickly raise the revs a few times while looking in the rear view. There shouldn’t be any blue smoke. There should be no sound of bubbles behind the dash at startup or switch off. Shine a torch down the side of the expansion tank it should be nice and pink and no scum on the top. The oil should be honey colour the darker it is the longer since it’s last change. You don’t want to see a grey colour. After starting at 1200 It should soon settle and idles smoothly at 750RPM (no fluctuating) There should be no sound of bubbles behind the dash. If you squeeze coolant top hose shouldn’t be solid, it should also remain cold for the first minute after the car has started. From the exhaust it should nice even sound. If there condensation coming out of the exhaust (it’s that time of year) hold a piece of kitchen roll over the end and check it’s not pink
Depending on what you are use to these engines are slightly more noisy than those with hydraulic tappets
Depending on what you are use to these engines are slightly more noisy than those with hydraulic tappets
Flood damaged vehicles are always (or at least are always supposed to be) CatB writeoffs, never to be returned to the road.
Only thing I can think to add to that is, if it's not been started for a day or so it's not unusual to hear the tappets rattle briefly as the oil gets pumped up to the top of the engine. I'm talking just a couple of seconds here, and it should go quiet after that.
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