Off Topic FIAT Ducato Vans for the USA

[raton_laveur]

Fiat's Ducato vans will be sold in the USA!

Have a look here...

[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_Ducato[/ame]

And here...

http://www.allpar.com/news/index.php/2012/01/ram-version-of-ducato-coming-in-2013

Unlike the Ford Econoline and the Chevy Express, the Fiat Ducato is a front wheel drive van. That gives a lower floor for easier loading and full upright standing room in the taller versions. The rear doors can also pivot up to 270 degrees so they open against the sides of the body for easy access. Ducatos come with a range of small (by US standards) diesel engines but they don't lack for power. They also use rather less fuel than a typical US van. Several different lenghts and heights are available in Europe but all may not be available in the USA, at least at first. They will be sold with the Dodge/Ram name and may get a slight makeover for the US market or just new badges.

There's also the possibility that the Fiat Doblo small van may also be sold in the USA but that's not confirmed yet.

Here's a link to Fiat's British site for commercial vehicles to give you an idea of what to expect. It also covers other models not slated to arrive in the USA.

http://www.fiatprofessional.co.uk/uk/

Enjoy!
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[AndyRKett]

but the question is will americans buy them?

We all know the yanks are happy to cut off their own nose to spite their face when it comes to buying goods. they very much have an attitude of "if it isn't made in america we don't want it" no matter how much better or cheaper it is.

fiat also don't have a very good reputation over the pond as such the fiat 500 isn't doing as well as expected, i can't see a range of vans will do very well at all, but i would be happy to be proven wrong

 

[websmack]

The engines are likley to be manufactured stateside, in Detroit which is a selling point for some Americans. The style is what's in right now, box shaped. It has a chance, I believe.

 

[AndyRKett]

The engines are likley to be manufactured stateside, in Detroit which is a selling point for some Americans. The style is what's in right now, box shaped. It has a chance, I believe.

You are probably right, actually having read the report (which I should have done before my reply) if they are badged as a Dodge ram / Chrysler then its quite likely to do much better than my initial thoughts

 

[raton_laveur]

Dodge has been in the van market at home since 1964 so they are well established. The last full size Dodge vans were rebadged Mercedes Sprinters but they are no longer sold in North America. I think the Front-Drive Ducato has a lot going for it. Let's see if Dodge is willing to spend some money on advertising to get it established. Chances are that it will have Chrysler V-6 engines offered but I really hope they keep the Fiat/Iveco diesels.

 

[raton_laveur]

but the question is will americans buy them?

We all know the yanks are happy to cut off their own nose to spite their face when it comes to buying goods. they very much have an attitude of "if it isn't made in america we don't want it" no matter how much better or cheaper it is.

fiat also don't have a very good reputation over the pond as such the fiat 500 isn't doing as well as expected, i can't see a range of vans will do very well at all, but i would be happy to be proven wrong

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But for quite some years the best selling car in the USA has been a Toyota, usually the Camry.

 

[websmack]

. But for quite some years the best selling car in the USA has been a Toyota, usually the Camry.

Fiat's Ducato van is a commerical model with an engine likely to be produced in Detroit, to compete with Ford's Econoline van. I don't think Toyota has a dog in that race , only sells passenger vans in America.

 

[raton_laveur]

Fiat's Ducato van is a commerical model with an engine likely to be produced in Detroit, to compete with Ford's Econoline van. I don't think Toyota has a dog in that race , only sells passenger vans in America.

It's true that Toyota doesn't sell cargo vans in the USA, but I was talking about cars.

Ford has a 6.0 V-8 diesel in the Econoline and Chevy a 6.2 V-8 diesel in the Express. They are both going to get a big surprise when Fiat's 3.0 V-6 shows up in the Ducato/Ram Van.Dodge doesn't have it's own diesels for its trucks. They use Cummings (5.9 I-6) or another supplier.

Why do I think the Ducato will do well in the USA? OK, let's start by saying that I'm an American but have lived in the UK and Europe for several decades. First, the Ford and Chevy are pretty much from the 60's and 70's. Front engine, rear drive. Not nice to drive empty in the winter in mush of the US. The rear drive also gives them a high cargo floor and the rear doors are narrow. They can not open around the body, even as an option. They also don't have the various lengths and heights available from the factory like the Ducato does. And the Ducato's diesels are going to use a lot less fuel to deliver the same amount of goods for the same distance. The question is will Dodge make the needed investments in manufacturing and advertising to make it the game-changer that it really could be in the US market? Just to add some icing on the cake, will they come up with a factory 4WD option even though that would make the body sit higher off the ground?

And I drive a Fiat Qubo Trekking, so you can say that I'm a Fiat van driver.
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[StevenRB45]

but the question is will americans buy them?

We all know the yanks are happy to cut off their own nose to spite their face when it comes to buying goods. they very much have an attitude of "if it isn't made in america we don't want it" no matter how much better or cheaper it is.

fiat also don't have a very good reputation over the pond as such the fiat 500 isn't doing as well as expected, i can't see a range of vans will do very well at all, but i would be happy to be proven wrong

If they want it to be competitive it will have to be made in the US, simply because there is a 25% tax on light trucks made abroad. They can be shipped in flat-pack and assembled or can arrive fitted out as a passenger vehicle and be gutted (option 1 was used by Mercedes option 2 is used by Ford when importing Transit connects). Protectionism at its finest and the main reason why dinosaurs like the econoline are still around.

 

[raton_laveur]

I think it will be Option 1, local assembly of imported components.

 

[StevenRB45]

I think it will be Option 1, local assembly of imported components.

You would think so as at 1st glance it makes more sense. However Ford can make Transit Connects pay despite importing them from Turkey. It doesn't have to be usable as a passenger vehicle as such, it does have to have seat belts and some seats in the rear and glass in the back to classify as passenger vehicle and so attract 2.5% tax. However Ford guts the seats on arrival replaces the windows with metal panels and recycles the bits removed and then sells it as a van (apparently it's significantly less than $1000 per vehicle to do) . I doubt Ford is lacking production capacity in North America so it must be a cheaper way to do it otherwise they would be doing the Daimler/Chrysler way. For me option 2 makes more sense for Fiat if it could be done cheaply cos you only employ one set of people to build the van and then transport as one piece which surely weighs the same as the component parts then you drive it off the boat knock the windows and seats out and sell it. Although local interests would probably have as much say as economics.

 

[raton_laveur]

In the case of the Ducato, they are made in the north of France, not far from Belgium. Low Turkish labor costs don't enter into the equation so shipping Ducatos as completed passenger vans to the US and remaking them as commercial vans won't work in this case. I doubt that Ford would be doing this if the Connects were made on Koln, Saarlouis, Genk or any of its other western European plants.

Incidently, the agreement to share production costs on light commercial vehicles between Fiat and PSA (Peugeot-Citroen) comes to an end during 2017. Fiat has already said they wil not be renewing the agreement. Fiat also has IVECO in the van market but historically IVECO's are larger than Fiats, that's to say in the Sprinter category of larger vans. That may well change in 2017/18. Also, IVECO and Renault joined forces to create Irisbus a few years ago so this may be a portent for the future if Fiat doesn't wish to go it alone.

 

[The Beard]

For their pick up trucks I can't see any reason why they should stop using the Cummins B series which could be used here because of the Cummins service network but seeing the average engine size in a pick up in Europe is 2.5 - 2.8 litres 5.9 is a bit over the top.

Although there was a time when a V8 or straight 6 would have been de rigeur in a van of this type it's quite possible that having had the 2.9 5cylinder diesel for a while now in the US they could have got used to the oily stuff so the FPT engines may be quite acceptable. Plus the fact that although the Ducato usually has a 130bhp 2.3 and 160bhp 3.0 litre engines they've recently been upgraded to full IVECO 150 and 180 horse output so presumably the transmissions and drivelines have been upgraded as well, perhaps with traction control. Then there's always the IVECO range to take care of the heavier end of things.

The Dodge van range actually goes back to the Tradesman range of the '70s, the cab of which was used here for a time and was also known as the 50 series and was still mad when Renault took over the British Dodge range after Chrysler got out of the business.

http://www.dodge50.co.uk/

A better image of a possible Dodge Ducato can be found here:

http://blogs.insideline.com/straigh...sler-registers-cuda-tradesman-trademarks.html

 

[raton_laveur]

The Dodge vans you showed there were based on the B Series from around 1971 to 2003 or 2004. Dodge's first vans were the A Series, which entered production in 1964 and stayed around until replaced by the B Series. They are the ones that first used the the Tradesman name.

That photoshop link is a little better than the one on Allpar but the 'author' would have done better to have installed the grille upside down from what was shown. Of course that would necessitate the inversement of the Dodge logo as well.

 

[The Beard]

What I don't know about the US market is what marks out the various classes. In the UK (and probably most of Europe) the main dividing lines are 3.5 tonne, 7.5 t, 18 t and 40/44 tonnes with one or two differen classes in between. The Daily's a little on the heavy side at 3.5t, but if the class line is at 4 or 4.5 tonnes then it won't be a problem and the Ducato's not particularly heavy anyway.

As for heavier trucks the original Ford Cargo went over the pond when the first of the IVECO/Ford Eurocargos appeared and was sold there for many years, as did the old 'Club of Four' cab as a Mack when that brand was owned by Renault. Volvo took over White and many of their panels made it onto US market heavy trucks and the same was the case with Mercedes when they aquired Freightliner so I'm wondering whether more FIAT Group products will also make the leap especially as they've had some Normal Control/Conventional models on sale in Oz for quite a few years now and, I think, are also available with Cummins engines which will go down well Stateside.

http://www.iveco.com.au/powerstar-beauty-and-the-beast/index.html

 

[raton_laveur]

I can remember the Ford Thames van that belonged to the radio station that my dad worked for in the '50's in the USA.

Also, Mack sold the Renault FR1 coach in the USA for a while during the '80's. Actually, they leased a total of 25 of them to a handful of operators as no one there wanted to buy them. Although equipped with Mack engines with Mack engines, the industry standard back then was the Detroit Diesel 8V-71N. They were the first 'Mack' buses or coaches since 1960 but they ended up as the last Mack passenger vehicles.

Classes in the US are one-half, three-quarter and one ton payload for light commercial vehicles such as vans and pickups. Above that it gets bigger fast but the idea of classes has never caught on. I think that 40 (US) tons or 80000 pounds GVW is as far as it goes. One reason for classes not catching on is that each state has its own rules and weight restrictions. It was in the 20-25 years that the federal government told the states they must allow vehicles up to a certain size and weight on Interstate highways (motorways) as they are 90% paid for by the fed.
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