Technical 1.2 69hp or 1.0 70hp hybrid ?

[tonycharente]

Hello,

I want to buy a recent, low-mileage Panda (2019 - 2022).

I'm hesitating between the 1.2 69hp and the 1.0 70hp hybrid.

According to searches, the 1.2 69hp engine is very reliable.

I couldn't find anything on the reliability of the 1.0 70hp hybrid engine, and also nothing on the reliability of its hybrid system (with its extra battery and its belt that has to pass a few horsepower).

Can someone who has already done thousands of miles with the 1.0 70hp hybrid confirm (or not...) the reliability of this hybrid system, please?

Thanks in advance

Tony

 

[jrkitching]

I couldn't find anything on the reliability of the 1.0 70hp hybrid engine, and also nothing on the reliability of its hybrid system (with its extra battery and its belt that has to pass a few horsepower).

We know the 1.2 is basically a reliable lump because it's been around for decades and proven itself over time.

The 70HP engine is much newer, and doesn't have that track record, at least not yet, so nobody really knows what will happen in the long term.

That said, there haven't been many posts here from folks who've run into problems. I'd expect that any electronic system issues out of warranty could be hard to resolve without main dealer support, and that won't be cheap. Also when the time comes to replace the batteries, the cost will likely be higher than with the 69HP version..

I'd be much more wary of the TA engine; both the intake valve system (uniair module) and DMF (on those which have one) are commonly reported as failing prematurely.

 

[tonycharente]

We know the 1.2 is basically a reliable lump because it's been around for decades and proven itself over time.

The 70HP engine is much newer, and doesn't have that track record, at least not yet, so nobody really knows what will happen in the long term.

That said, there haven't been many posts here from folks who've run into problems. I'd expect that any electronic system issues out of warranty could be hard to resolve without main dealer support, and that won't be cheap. Also when the time comes to replace the batteries, the cost will likely be higher than with the 69HP version..

I'd be much more wary of the TA engine; both the intake valve system (uniair module) and DMF (on those which have one) are commonly reported as failing prematurely.

Thank you for your rapid reply. Yes, I'd already ruled out the TA versions as these seem to have the most issues. I must say I'd not even thought about the cost of replacing the extra battery on the hybrid, so that adds to the hybrid negatives.

The 1.2 has a timing belt which as far as can see is its only downside - but I've found no trace of these failing prematurely (unlike certain 4 cylindre Alfas).
Thanks again.

 

[tonycharente]

Thank you for your very helpful replies. I decided to buy one with the 1.2 4 cylinder engine, and am now the proud owner of an October 2020 "Lounge" with a little under 34000 kms. I now have a question about the A/C, but I'll start a new thread for that.

 

[Leroypanda]

Belisimo.

 

[The Panda Nut]

Good choice. Take heed of the warning in your handbook not to overfill the fuel tank . Once the pump cut off activates, fill no more!!! The evapouration control system is the only thing I have had trouble with. I dont know if the previous owner of our car overfilled it, but it was costly to resolve, Keep the front brakes free by regular service, at least one a year. I think you new car looks very good and I hope you enjoy it as much as I do and seemingly most of the other Pand drivers. You now officially have the 'Panda Virus' and it has no known treatment.

 

[tonycharente]

Good choice. Take heed of the warning in your handbook not to overfill the fuel tank . Once the pump cut off activates, fill no more!!! The evapouration control system is the only thing I have had trouble with. I dont know if the previous owner of our car overfilled it, but it was costly to resolve, Keep the front brakes free by regular service, at least one a year. I think you new car looks very good and I hope you enjoy it as much as I do and seemingly most of the other Pand drivers. You now officially have the 'Panda Virus' and it has no known treatment.

Many thanks for your advice, which I will certainly follow. It's going in for its "30000 kms" service at our local Fiat garage tomorrow morning, whilst it's still under the factory warranty. (In fact the original owner got an extra 8 years / 100000 kms Fiat extended warranty for free when he bought it, but I'm not sure it's as good as the initial 2 years factory warranty.)

 

[The Panda Nut]

Many thanks for your advice, which I will certainly follow. It's going in for its "30000 kms" service at our local Fiat garage tomorrow morning, whilst it's still under the factory warranty. (In fact the original owner got an extra 8 years / 100000 kms Fiat extended warranty for free when he bought it, but I'm not sure it's as good as the initial 2 years factory warranty.)

My experience is its well worth having and it covers most expensive things. It doesnt cover wear and tear items and some lesser components, but they ar'nt the things that break the bank.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Thank you for your very helpful replies. I decided to buy one with the 1.2 4 cylinder engine, and am now the proud owner of an October 2020 "Lounge" with a little under 34000 kms. I now have a question about the A/C, but I'll start a new thread for that.View attachment 410921

Yup, that's the one I'd have gone for too. Quite a bit less complex mechanically and there are lots of mechanics out there who will be thoroughly conversant with it so, even if you're not going to service and maintain it yourself, the repair bills are likely to be less than the other engine options. Spares for this engine are also easy and cheap to get. Don't worry about having a timing belt, it's a pretty easy one to change so, again, shouldn't cost a lot to have done professionally. Timing chains, whilst having a reputation for lasting longer, are not without their problems and invariably cost more to sort out when they do go wrong - I'd actually rate having a belt as a positive. Also the lack of a Dual Mass flywheel is a big plus. Keep a close eye on the coolant level, I'd advise a weekly check. Don't ignore any drop in level. These FIRE engines have proved themselves to be really robust and long lived but they really don't like overheating and will often blow the head gasket if ignored - They don't like overheating at all. Keep an eye on things though and you can expect interstellar mileages.

Panda Nut is warning above not to overfill the fuel tank and this is advice we all should heed, regardless of what car we run. If you fill the tank full enough for liquid fuel to get sucked into the EVAP system it'll contaminate the charcoal canister and maybe do other damage and cause the MIL to come on and maybe even for the engine to go into LIMP. Don't overfill your tank people. As Panda Nut says above, you now officially have the Panda Virus (Panditus ecstasy abnormilus) and there is absolutely no hope for you from now on! So just sit back and enjoy your new Panda friend.

 

[tonycharente]

Yup, that's the one I'd have gone for too. Quite a bit less complex mechanically and there are lots of mechanics out there who will be thoroughly conversant with it so, even if you're not going to service and maintain it yourself, the repair bills are likely to be less than the other engine options. Spares for this engine are also easy and cheap to get. Don't worry about having a timing belt, it's a pretty easy one to change so, again, shouldn't cost a lot to have done professionally. Timing chains, whilst having a reputation for lasting longer, are not without their problems and invariably cost more to sort out when they do go wrong - I'd actually rate having a belt as a positive. Also the lack of a Dual Mass flywheel is a big plus. Keep a close eye on the coolant level, I'd advise a weekly check. Don't ignore any drop in level. These FIRE engines have proved themselves to be really robust and long lived but they really don't like overheating and will often blow the head gasket if ignored - They don't like overheating at all. Keep an eye on things though and you can expect interstellar mileages.

Panda Nut is warning above not to overfill the fuel tank and this is advice we all should heed, regardless of what car we run. If you fill the tank full enough for liquid fuel to get sucked into the EVAP system it'll contaminate the charcoal canister and maybe do other damage and cause the MIL to come on and maybe even for the engine to go into LIMP. Don't overfill your tank people. As Panda Nut says above, you now officially have the Panda Virus (Panditus ecstasy abnormilus) and there is absolutely no hope for you from now on! So just sit back and enjoy your new Panda friend.

Thanks very much for the further helpful advice, which I will also follow.
Before deciding what engine to go with I'd done some searches on the 1.2 cambelt life and reliability and found no evidence of problems (unlike certain 4 cylinder Alfa engines). So I decided to avoid the complications of the 1.0 hybrid, with less torque and which don't seem to add any real benefits.

 

[The Panda Nut]

Thanks very much for the further helpful advice, which I will also follow.
Before deciding what engine to go with I'd done some searches on the 1.2 cambelt life and reliability and found no evidence of problems (unlike certain 4 cylinder Alfa engines). So I decided to avoid the complications of the 1.0 hybrid, with less torque and which don't seem to add any real benefits.

Good choice. I agree with you. I have driven the hybrid and its quite similar to the 1.2 in terms of power. I still vastly prefer the twinair which is much quicker and better on hills. I was not very impressed with the hybrid as the car I tried seemed to be hunting in and out of electric power and I just didnt like it. I feel passengers would feel ill on long journeys. I also think its a lot of extra complication for no actual improvement in economy over the car you have bought. I can easily see over 60mpg on a longer drive in ours with passenger and a pile of luggage. Im sure for those entering the fray of Panda ownership who have never driven the old version, the new one probably feels fine. There is no real future for these mild hybrids so I can't really see the upside.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Good choice. I agree with you. I have driven the hybrid and its quite similar to the 1.2 in terms of power. I still vastly prefer the twinair which is much quicker and better on hills. I was not very impressed with the hybrid as the car I tried seemed to be hunting in and out of electric power and I just didnt like it. I feel passengers would feel ill on long journeys. I also think its a lot of extra complication for no actual improvement in economy over the car you have bought. I can easily see over 60mpg on a longer drive in ours with passenger and a pile of luggage. Im sure for those entering the fray of Panda ownership who have never driven the old version, the new one probably feels fine. There is no real future for these mild hybrids so I can't really see the upside.

I think I can see the point of purely electrically powered cars, although there's the problem of producing electricity in sufficient quantity from non polluting sources, to say nothing of all the "horrid" stuff in the batteries themselves. I also wonder just how reliable these vehicles may be when they get older as they are not "just" an electric motor with a big battery to drive it. There's a whole host of very "clever" electronics waiting to go wrong which will not be "sortable" by mere mortals like us. At 75 years of age I really doubt if I'll ever own one. I'm very interested to see how my son in law gets on with his which is due to be delivered in about a month, maybe.

Hybrids? I just don't "get" hybrids. Why would you buy something of such complexity? Basically an electric car with all the potential electrical problems and an IC engine with all the complexity and associated problems of the modern IC engine, and why, when many don't actually achieve all that much better fuel consumption compared to these wee 3 cylinder things like my IBIZA, would you do that?

I think it won't be long now before we have to reduce or stop our long distance trips as we are finding it more difficult due to age and when that comes about I could see me looking for a very late model 1.2 Panda and running it until either they take my licence away or lock me up in a home!

 

[Marcus Daly]

Hybrids? I just don't "get" hybrids. Why would you buy something of such complexity? Basically an electric car with all the potential electrical problems and an IC engine with all the complexity and associated problems of the modern IC engine, and why, when many don't actually achieve all that much better fuel consumption compared to these wee 3 cylinder things like my IBIZA, would you do that?

Hybrids are a brilliant compromise. The problem is that Fiat don’t make one, regardless of what the badge on the boot says.

I routinely managed 90mpg in my last Prius, a car significantly bigger and heavier than your Ibiza. That’s a pukka hybrid for you.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I have to say that if I were ever to consider a hybrid it would be a Toyota I'd be looking at. For my particular circumstance though I'm happy to just keep plodding on with the older tech. The "mild" hybrid thing does puzzle me though as they aren't really hybrids are they? I suspect it's a way to comply with certain regulations which allow you to enter these pollution zones and/or sell more cars because it's got Hybrid on the boot?

 

[The Panda Nut]

Hybrids are a brilliant compromise. The problem is that Fiat don’t make one, regardless of what the badge on the boot says.

I routinely managed 90mpg in my last Prius, a car significantly bigger and heavier than your Ibiza. That’s a pukka hybrid for you.

Prius hybrid cant really be compared to the Panda. I think petrol / diesel hybrids, self charging hybrids and PHEV's have a future but things like the Panda where the electric side is such a minor addition it questions what they are actually doing. Making something useful or just lip service for marketing. I routinely got 65 - 75 mpg out of my Bravo 1.6D and with not much effort that would do 90mpg. The Panda hybrid doesnt contribute anything at all to the mix that I can identify.

 

[Marcus Daly]

The Panda hybrid doesnt contribute anything at all to the mix that I can identify.

It's an emissions fiddle, nothing more.

But then so was the Twinair.