Technical Stilo Abarth won't start; Ignition key off in MES?

PhilStiloAbarth · Apr 5, 2017

Hi everybody!

I'm a fresh owner of an awesome Stilo Abarth! At least I think it's awesome, the bloody thing refuses to start...

MES reveals issues like P0340, although the camshaft position sensor should be fine. It's been replaced recently. Same goes for the crankshaft sensor.

When I try to start it, the dash comes to life like normal, the engine will crank fine, it gets fuel but there's no spark.

So I started looking around at some live data and I came across something very strange, according to MES the ECU seems to think the ignition key is in the OFF position whilst it's turned to MAR. Does anybody have any idea what's up with that? It baffles me, but could this be the root of my starting problem?

Cheers in advance for your help,

Phil

Artermis · Apr 6, 2017

This isn't something I've come across before - i've never read this parameter.

The lack of spark to me would correlate more with the crank position error you're seeing. Glad the cam sensor has been replaced as I can't remember if that's a cambelt off job to change or not. Some vehicles it is, not sure on our Abarths.

Has crank pos sensor been done?

Have you checked your earth connections. They can wreak havoc if a sensor isn't properly earthed - it's possibly a long shot like but maybe worth a check.

In the interests of community spirit, I need to reset my service indicator anyway so I'll see if I can fire up my laptop and check out what my car reads on this parameter too (2004 Abarth).

I shall report back when I can.

PhilStiloAbarth · Apr 6, 2017

2.4 Abarth indeed needs the cambelt being taken off in order to swap it.
The crank sensor has been done and reads RPM as it should, which I've confirmed in MES whilst cranking it. Any specific earth connection(s) you'd recommend me checking? I already took apart the relay/fusebox for a thorough cleaning. D4 is clean as a whistle too.

I'll have all weekend to work on it, if I fail in getting it started I'll have to consider the option of getting rid of which I really don't want, so any help is much appreciated!

PhilStiloAbarth · Apr 7, 2017

Stilo Abarth won't start

I found out that pin 47 of connector A receives + coming from the ignition key, this seems to work (measure around 8 volts). Again, any help on the not starting issue is much appreciated. Thanks in advance!

dtimmins1985 · Apr 7, 2017

Re: Stilo Abarth won't start

PhilStiloAbarth said:
I found out that pin 47 of connector A receives + coming from the ignition key, this seems to work (measure around 8 volts). Again, any help on the not starting issue is much appreciated. Thanks in advance!

Have a look in MES at the part that tells you Engine Start "Allowed" - this will tell you if they key with transponder inside it has been detected and is correct for your car and immobiliser.

I had a spare valet key for my old stilo, it would never start it - i checked with MES, they key had been disabled, not by mistake or by a blip, it was done via Fiat themselves, you can disable keys when you loose - but you can never pair them up again, unless you do it in a hex editor and flash the ECU, this means taking it apart etc.

^^ Something you cannot do with MES. ^^

Also - if its the transponder, it will allow it to crank etc but wont allow the spark / fuel to come through.

PhilStiloAbarth · Apr 7, 2017

Re: Stilo Abarth won't start

dtimmins1985 said:
Have a look in MES at the part that tells you Engine Start "Allowed" - this will tell you if they key with transponder inside it has been detected and is correct for your car and immobiliser.

I had a spare valet key for my old stilo, it would never start it - i checked with MES, they key had been disabled, not by mistake or by a blip, it was done via Fiat themselves, you can disable keys when you loose - but you can never pair them up again, unless you do it in a hex editor and flash the ECU, this means taking it apart etc.

^^ Something you cannot do with MES. ^^

Also - if its the transponder, it will allow it to crank etc but wont allow the spark / fuel to come through.

Ok so after reading this, I got into the Stilo and checked a few things.

Connected to the engine ECU:

-Parameter Ignition key remains OFF
-Parameter Engine start-up remains blank
-When the engine cranks the fuel pump relay value becomes ACTIVE

Connected to Body ECU:

-Parameters show 2 active keys, both can be identified as remotes and as keys by the car

So it appears that it has the right keys which can be read by the car but something is amiss?

g8rpi · Apr 7, 2017

Re: Stilo Abarth won't start

Ignition key status of OFF sounds like the issue. you say you have measured 8V on pin 47. This is low, I'd expect to see battery voltage, 11 to 12V, at this pin. Sounds like it might be a bad igniton switch. Can you jumper 12V onto the wire on pin 47? Pusing a pin ito the wire is one way of making a connection without cutting the wire.

Robert G8RPI.

Artermis · Apr 8, 2017

Apologies to Phil for not responding sooner with the readouts from my Abarth.

I've not forgotten and I've not been slow about responding - sadly I've been struggling with my laptop and cable connections showing high latency and booting me out when I try and read any parameters. I was trying all thursday evening and yesterday morning but got no joy.

I know my laptop is a bit old these days but it should run FES / MES (I have old registered version of FES).

Currently formatting laptop back to runnning Win 7 - current on win 10 and hate it - so I will respond with readings from my car just as soon as I can.

Cheers.

PhilStiloAbarth · Apr 8, 2017

Re: Stilo Abarth won't start

g8rpi said:
Ignition key status of OFF sounds like the issue. you say you have measured 8V on pin 47. This is low, I'd expect to see battery voltage, 11 to 12V, at this pin. Sounds like it might be a bad igniton switch. Can you jumper 12V onto the wire on pin 47? Pusing a pin ito the wire is one way of making a connection without cutting the wire.

Robert G8RPI.

Thank you for your reply. When pin 47 receives 12 volt, it still shows ignition key OFF and the car still refuses to come to life.

g8rpi · Apr 8, 2017

Re: Stilo Abarth won't start

PhilStiloAbarth said:
Thank you for your reply. When pin 47 receives 12 volt, it still shows ignition key OFF and the car still refuses to come to life.

Hmm,
Hate to say this but that sounds like a faulty ECU. Maybe Artermes can check what his Stilo's key staus says.

Robert G8RPI.

PhilStiloAbarth · Apr 8, 2017

Artermis said:
Apologies to Phil for not responding sooner with the readouts from my Abarth.

I've not forgotten and I've not been slow about responding - sadly I've been struggling with my laptop and cable connections showing high latency and booting me out when I try and read any parameters. I was trying all thursday evening and yesterday morning but got no joy.

I know my laptop is a bit old these days but it should run FES / MES (I have old registered version of FES).

Currently formatting laptop back to runnning Win 7 - current on win 10 and hate it - so I will respond with readings from my car just as soon as I can.

Cheers.

Cheers for trying, I hope you're able to shed some more light on this matter

PhilStiloAbarth · Apr 8, 2017

Re: Stilo Abarth won't start

g8rpi said:
Hmm,
Hate to say this but that sounds like a faulty ECU. Maybe @Artermes can check what his Stilo's key staus says.

Robert G8RPI.

I've been told there are ways to reset an old ECU by resetting some files, so when you plug it in to the car it can self-learn all the corresponding codes and then it will work with the car. I'm able to get a hold of another ECU for a small amount of money, do you perhaps know anything about the procedure for going about this?

dtimmins1985 · Apr 9, 2017

Artermis said:
Apologies to Phil for not responding sooner with the readouts from my Abarth.

I've not forgotten and I've not been slow about responding - sadly I've been struggling with my laptop and cable connections showing high latency and booting me out when I try and read any parameters. I was trying all thursday evening and yesterday morning but got no joy.

I know my laptop is a bit old these days but it should run FES / MES (I have old registered version of FES).

Currently formatting laptop back to runnning Win 7 - current on win 10 and hate it - so I will respond with readings from my car just as soon as I can.

Cheers.

Did you set latency to 1ms in com port driver settings.

I had same issues as you and you will have the same issue with win7 if you don't change the settings under the com port driver settings (in device manager)

dtimmins1985 · Apr 9, 2017

Re: Stilo Abarth won't start

PhilStiloAbarth said:
I've been told there are ways to reset an old ECU by resetting some files, so when you plug it in to the car it can self-learn all the corresponding codes and then it will work with the car. I'm able to get a hold of another ECU for a small amount of money, do you perhaps know anything about the procedure for going about this?

I think you mean Virginise the Ecu.

I have never done it, probably guides online.

Artermis · Apr 9, 2017

Phil,

Sorry you were still waiting on me for a response to this. Weekend went from bad to worse as wife put £30 of petrol in her diesel Peugeot. Sorted it now though.

Anyway as you were still waiting on me I've been and checked. The ignition key on / off parameter shows as OFF at all times, regardless of key position or engine running / not running. So I'm afraid this isn't your problem. I'd conclude this simply isn't a parameter measured by the car.

PhilStiloAbarth · Apr 9, 2017

dtimmins1985 said:
Did you set latency to 1ms in com port driver settings.

I had same issues as you and you will have the same issue with win7 if you don't change the settings under the com port driver settings (in device manager)

I'll check this tomorrow after work, thanks for the tip

PhilStiloAbarth · Apr 9, 2017

Artermis said:
Phil,

Sorry you were still waiting on me for a response to this. Weekend went from bad to worse as wife put £30 of petrol in her diesel Peugeot. Sorted it now though.

Anyway as you were still waiting on me I've been and checked. The ignition key on / off parameter shows as OFF at all times, regardless of key position or engine running / not running. So I'm afraid this isn't your problem. I'd conclude this simply isn't a parameter measured by the car.

Thank you so much for your efforts and getting back to me! That also applies to the others that have been helping out of course.

Ok so if ignition OFF value and a running engine is possible, it could be ECU related but seems a little less likely now. I'll try to make sure by following up the latency advise. Maybe I should check the timing of the engine? Apparently the timing being off could cause the P0340 error too. Since it's not sending the ignition coils signals but does allow fuel to be injected, it seems unlikely that the demobilizer is the cause, and it would explain the ECU not being able to work out which sparkplug to fire I guess. I gave myself 2 weeks more time to solve this and get it going, I really hope I'll achieve that goal.

Artermis · Apr 10, 2017

You're welcome.

If you have the means and ability to reset the timing - i think this should be your next course of action. New belts aren't expensive for just the belt or if it's recently done you should be fine to remove and refit the same belt once you're at TDC etc.

The spark / firing should be related to the cam and crank sensors and you've got a cam sensor issue - we know that. Check the wiring on it to best of your ability too, as it's not unheard of for people to damage wiring when working on cam belt or in that area.

Don't rule out the fact that the cam sensor may be duff, just because it's been recently replaced. That would be last resort but still don't totally discount it.

Poor fitment is also a potential. If you do go down the retiming route, consider removing, inspecting and refitting. Check it's fitting location for things like retained o-rings or debris that might stop the sensor from fully locating in it's position, as they're very sensitive to their gaps.

You could - if you wanted to check some stuff before a belt job - test the coil packs to see if you're getting any spark at all. I'm not for a moment suggesting every coil pack is duff (you'd get codes on them probably if they were) but you'd see if there is any command to spark coming your way at all. It might tell you if the motor is 180 deg out or anything.

The only other thing to check is whether you're certain that you've got fuel to the motor, if you've not already. I dont know if MES will show a fuel rail pressure or whether you want to go out skool and pop a pipe to see if the lift pump in the tank is providing.

PhilStiloAbarth · Apr 10, 2017

Artermis said:
You're welcome.

If you have the means and ability to reset the timing - i think this should be your next course of action. New belts aren't expensive for just the belt or if it's recently done you should be fine to remove and refit the same belt once you're at TDC etc.

The spark / firing should be related to the cam and crank sensors and you've got a cam sensor issue - we know that. Check the wiring on it to best of your ability too, as it's not unheard of for people to damage wiring when working on cam belt or in that area.

Don't rule out the fact that the cam sensor may be duff, just because it's been recently replaced. That would be last resort but still don't totally discount it.

Poor fitment is also a potential. If you do go down the retiming route, consider removing, inspecting and refitting. Check it's fitting location for things like retained o-rings or debris that might stop the sensor from fully locating in it's position, as they're very sensitive to their gaps.

You could - if you wanted to check some stuff before a belt job - test the coil packs to see if you're getting any spark at all. I'm not for a moment suggesting every coil pack is duff (you'd get codes on them probably if they were) but you'd see if there is any command to spark coming your way at all. It might tell you if the motor is 180 deg out or anything.

The only other thing to check is whether you're certain that you've got fuel to the motor, if you've not already. I dont know if MES will show a fuel rail pressure or whether you want to go out skool and pop a pipe to see if the lift pump in the tank is providing.

Thanks again for your input. I've measured the wires of the CAM sensor, it all seems to be OK. It receives the correct voltage and even though I don't have an oscilloscope to see the exact signal it gives, I was able to measure that it gives pulses towards the ECU. The coil packs receive their 12V feed but don't receive commands to fire. I've tried testing this with a spark plug outside of the engine and I've measured it too just to be sure. The cambelt has been renewed recently, the only problem is sourcing the CAM locks for the Abarth engine. Here in NL this is seems to be mission impossible for some reason. I haven't tried asking the local dealer to loan them to me though. I can see in MES that the fuel pump is engaged whilst attempting to start, my sense of smell can definitely confirm this

I'll report back once I've made progress.

dtimmins1985 · Apr 10, 2017

PhilStiloAbarth said:
I'll check this tomorrow after work, thanks for the tip

Also - I find windows 10 much quicker and more stable than Win 7 - however,
Win 7 was my favourite for many years, skipped Win8 & Win8.1 but went to 10 and it is much better in lots of ways (i wont go into detail and bore you, but i could lol)

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Technical Stilo Abarth won't start; Ignition key off in MES?