Technical Where to get special tool for change cambelt

shiningliao · Jan 30, 2008

I am planning to change the timing belt by myself. Some special tools are required to do the job. Any one know how to get them cheaply? Or use some alternative solutions...

1). Fly wheel holding tool (The one at the right hand side of the picture)
part no.: 1860898000

2). Crankshaft timing tool (The one at the top of the picture)
part no.: 1860905000

3). Calibrated screw (The black screws at the top of the picture)
part no.: 1860905010

Price quote from FIAT is around £60 pounds. Searching through internet found the similiar one is £85+ (becuase it contains other stuff)

Anyone get any idea to get it cheaply? In fact, I only need to "rent it" for awhile.

shiningliao · Jan 30, 2008

I also found a tool that might be able to replace the item 2 and 3 but not sure how it works... Anyone know how to use this tool?

Deckchair5 · Jan 30, 2008

What engine? Each one is different

shiningliao · Jan 30, 2008

Deckchair5 said:
What engine? Each one is different

Yes, you are right. Forgot to mention it's 1.9 JTD.

john55 · Jan 31, 2008

You dont need any of them. dont bother. It is dead easy to change the JTD cam belt. Just need a socket set, allen key set (good strong hardened steel ones, not cheap ones as cheap ones will destroy bolt heads because they are in very tight) and torx key set + large-ish flat blade screwdriver. Also change the water pump at the same time.

First, disconnect battery, ensure car is NOT put in gear. ( I then removed wheel arch lining, washer resivour, coolant resivour and engine ECU to give better access),
remove Aux belt and crank shaft pulley. Remove cam belt covers.
Turn crank shaft bolt until TDC timing marks line up.
Mark belt and pulleys with paint or similar so you know which belt tooth goes in which position ( I do 2 marks on crank pulley, 3 marks on cam pulley and 1 on diesel pump pulley.
Use large screwdriver in spoke of cam shaft pulley to hold it while loosening bolt in center. It is best to do this with the cam belt still on, but don't use the belt to hold the pulley steady, use the screwdriver for that.
Remove tensioner belt and cam shaft pulley.
Transfer markings from old belt to new one.
Refit new tensioner and idler pulley. (I had to go to fiat and buy a different bolt as the new idler pulley was different to the old one)
Drain some radiator water out so level is below water pump. Unbolt cam shaft sensor and change water pump. (Be careful with screws on the cam shaft sensor as they are locktited in and easy to strip the heads. Some heat may help in removing them)
Fit new water pump, refit sensor and cam pulley as above. Just do cam pulley bolt up hand tight, then tighten it properly after cam belt is put on.
Refit cam belt so that marks line up.
Get an assistant to push on cam belt tensioner spring release with screwdriver, from below, while you tighten the bolt in the center of it from above the engine.
Make sure cam pulley bolt is tight, using a screwdriver against the spoke and the tip on the edge if the water pump, behind it to hold its position while tightening (again be careful and do not let it slip out)
Turn engine over a couple of times by hand to ensure everything is free and belt is on correctly.
Refit other bits, fill coolant and blead system.
Start car.

PNL · Jan 31, 2008

john55 said:
You dont need any of them. dont bother. It is dead easy to change the JTD cam belt. Just need a socket set, allen key set (good strong hardened steel ones, not cheap ones as cheap ones will destroy bolt heads because they are in very tight) and torx key set + large-ish flat blade screwdriver. Also change the water pump at the same time.

First, disconnect battery, ensure car is NOT put in gear. ( I then removed wheel arch lining, washer resivour, coolant resivour and engine ECU to give better access),
remove Aux belt and crank shaft pulley. Remove cam belt covers.
Turn crank shaft bolt until TDC timing marks line up.
Mark belt and pulleys with paint or similar so you know which belt tooth goes in which position ( I do 2 marks on crank pulley, 3 marks on cam pulley and 1 on diesel pump pulley.
Use large screwdriver in spoke of cam shaft pulley to hold it while loosening bolt in center. It is best to do this with the cam belt still on, but don't use the belt to hold the pulley steady, use the screwdriver for that.
Remove tensioner belt and cam shaft pulley.
Transfer markings from old belt to new one.
Refit new tensioner and idler pulley. (I had to go to fiat and buy a different bolt as the new idler pulley was different to the old one)
Drain some radiator water out so level is below water pump. Unbolt cam shaft sensor and change water pump. (Be careful with screws on the cam shaft sensor as they are locktited in and easy to strip the heads. Some heat may help in removing them)
Fit new water pump, refit sensor and cam pulley as above. Just do cam pulley bolt up hand tight, then tighten it properly after cam belt is put on.
Refit cam belt so that marks line up.
Get an assistant to push on cam belt tensioner spring release with screwdriver, from below, while you tighten the bolt in the center of it from above the engine.
Make sure cam pulley bolt is tight, using a screwdriver against the spoke and the tip on the edge if the water pump, behind it to hold its position while tightening (again be careful and do not let it slip out)
Turn engine over a couple of times by hand to ensure everything is free and belt is on correctly.
Refit other bits, fill coolant and blead system.
Start car.

Nice post ..why now put that in the stilo guides for the others

john55 · Jan 31, 2008

I really should have taken some photos while I did it, expecially to show how to hold the cam pulley with a screwdriver while undoing the bolt, but car is all put back together now and I dont want to do the job again just to take photos. If someone else wants to expand on this a bit, with photos, I think it would make a good guide.

shiningliao · Jan 31, 2008

Thank you so much.

I have 2 questions, would you please help a bit futher?

john55 said:
Turn crank shaft bolt until TDC timing marks line up.

Is it very easy to turn by just use hand? Or show I use some tool?

john55 said:
Use large screwdriver in spoke of cam shaft pulley to hold it while loosening bolt in center. It is best to do this with the cam belt still on, but don't use the belt to hold the pulley steady, use the screwdriver for that.
Remove tensioner belt and cam shaft pulley.

Why remove cam shaft pulley? (Just to make sure we are talking the same item... It is the one in red circle of the attached diagram.)

Thank you again.

shiningliao · Jan 31, 2008

john55 said:
I really should have taken some photos while I did it, expecially to show how to hold the cam pulley with a screwdriver while undoing the bolt, but car is all put back together now and I dont want to do the job again just to take photos. If someone else wants to expand on this a bit, with photos, I think it would make a good guide.

I will take some photos and make it as a guide...

john55 · Jan 31, 2008

1. Easy to turn. There is a bolt on the end of the crank shaft, in the middle of the Aux belt pulley. Use a socket spanner on that to turn the engine over. It is obvious when you see it.
2. Water pump sits behind cam shaft pulley. You can't change it without removing pulley.

shiningliao · Jan 31, 2008

john55 said:
1. Easy to turn. There is a bolt on the end of the crank shaft, in the middle of the Aux belt pulley. Use a socket spanner on that to turn the engine over. It is obvious when you see it.
2. Water pump sits behind cam shaft pulley. You can't change it without removing pulley.

Cheers, I got it.

I use "FIAT repair procedures CD" to view how to change water pump and spot the picture. They use special tool again... shown in the attached diagram.

I am not intend to replace the water pump at this time for various reasons. Keep this job simple is the main reason. Once I know how to do the job and have the confidence, I don't mind to open it up again in the future...

shiningliao · Jan 31, 2008

john55 said:
You dont need any of them. dont bother.

I have studied the repair procedure again and also the instructions from DAYCO timing belt kit (£95). It seems it is possible not to use the tool.

Both instructions mentioned to use the "fly wheel locker tool" (See the No.2 item in the first attached diagram ) to remove the crankshaft pulley and refit with 2.4 (+-0.2) daN.m. = 24 NM torque.

I guess... the bolts to hold the crankshaft pulley ain't in the centre so it's easier to be slacken. Using hand to hold the pulley should be enough as using the tool to hold the pulley.

Is this correct? John, how did you hold the flywheel?

Cheers.

john55 · Jan 31, 2008

Changing the water pump is a very good idea as they do fail, and it is easy to do while you have the cam belt off. It is a lot of work to take the whole thing apart again later. Water pumps either jam, causing belt damage, or the impellar falls off the inside and it does not pump any more. It is no more demanding than the rest of the job to change it. Just substitute their "special tool" with a large screwdriver and loosen the cam pulley bolt while the cam belt is still on the car. That way, if the screwdriver slips while undoing it, the belt will still keep everything lined up. The bolt is not that tight anyway. On mine, I was prepared for a challange and thought it would be a problem getting the cam pulley off, but it turned out to be one of the easiest parts of the whole operation.

john55 · Jan 31, 2008

shiningliao said:
I have studied the repair procedure again and also the instructions from DAYCO timing belt kit (£95). It seems it is possible not to use the tool.

Both instructions mentioned to use the "fly wheel locker tool" (See the No.2 item in the first attached diagram ) to remove the crankshaft pulley.

However, the bolts to hold the crankshaft pulley ain't in the centre so it's easier to slacken it. I guess just use hand to hold the pulley should be enough. Is this correct?

Yes, there are 4 small bolts and they come undone easily. You can put a spanner on the large bolt in the center of the pulley to stop it turning if it does, but I didnt need to. They came out easily.

shiningliao · Jan 31, 2008

john55 said:
Mark belt and pulleys with paint or similar so you know which belt tooth goes in which position ( I do 2 marks on crank pulley, 3 marks on cam pulley and 1 on diesel pump pulley.
:
:
Transfer markings from old belt to new one.

I think I am fully understand now. The beauty of this method is mark the belt on several different places and transfer to the new belt. This procedure should safe guard their right position...

However, I am a bit concerned about remove/refit the camshaft sprocket. I am not sure it's gonna fit back to it's original position(between the sprocket and the camshaft). Specially when you need to apply torque on it.

On some other vehicles, (for example Volvo D5 engine) it requires to lock the camshaft (with special tool again) before remove/refit the camshaft sprocket. This is to ensure the volve to be open and close at the right time. If time is not correct, engine might not so efficient or even cause more problems.

Also, if camshaft somehow moved a bit after the sproceket removed. It's gonna be a big headache.

Please correct me if I am wrong. It's very nice to have someone very acknowledgeable to discuss with.

PNL · Jan 31, 2008

Cam sprocket should have a keyway on it so it will only go back on in that position ..

john55 · Jan 31, 2008

shiningliao said:
I think I am fully understand now. The beauty of this method is mark the belt on several different places and transfer to the new belt. This procedure should safe guard their right position...

However, I am a bit concerned about remove/refit the camshaft sprocket. I am not sure it's gonna fit back to it's original position(between the sprocket and the camshaft). Specially when you need to apply torque on it.

On some other vehicles, (for example Volvo D5 engine) it requires to lock the camshaft (with special tool again) before remove/refit the camshaft sprocket. This is to ensure the volve to be open and close at the right time. If time is not correct, engine might not so efficient or even cause more problems.

Also, if camshaft somehow moved a bit after the sproceket removed. It's gonna be a big headache.

Please correct me if I am wrong. It's very nice to have someone very acknowledgeable to discuss with.

The sprocket is keyed. There is no posibility it can go back on in a different position from that which it came off from. It only fits one way round.

You can't lock the camshaft if you are taking the pulley off. Camshaft locking tools attach to the pulley.
If it moves (mine was quite stiff when set in the TDC position with the timing marks, but I could move it), just turn it back again by hand and line up the marks on the pulley, or use your own marks on the belt. As long as you dont move it far or try to force it (a valve may hit the top of a piston inside if you turn it far, without turning the crankshaft at the same time).
Even this is not a problem provided you are not rough with it or try to force it. I recommend loosening and tightening the pulley bolt with the cam belt on the car, this is so that if anything does suddenly slip/ move, the crank shaft will move in time with the cam shaft and no problem will occur.
Once the pulley bolt is a bit loose, remove the cam belt and then unscrew the bolt the rest of the way by hand. The pulley will just fall off in your hand. There is no taper, it is not tight on the end of the cam shaft and it is unlikely you will turn the camshaft as you remove it. If it does turn, as I said, it is no big issue. Just hold the pulley onto the end of the cam shaft and gently turn it back again until the marks line up. It really is far easier than you think and wont cause you any problems.

shiningliao · Jan 31, 2008

PNL said:
Cam sprocket should have a keyway on it so it will only go back on in that position ..

Nice design!

Volvo D5 requires special key to lock camshaft from another end which means remove a lot more stuff...

shiningliao · Jan 31, 2008

john55 said:
Get an assistant to push on cam belt tensioner spring release with screwdriver, from below, while you tighten the bolt in the center of it from above the engine.
Make sure cam pulley bolt is tight, using a screwdriver against the spoke and the tip on the edge if the water pump, behind it to hold its position while tightening (again be careful and do not let it slip out)

One more question... I am really enjoying asking...

The instructions from DAYCO timing belt kit has 2 stage of tightening tensioner (or the "mobile tensioner pulley" - the term used by FIAT manual). I don't quite understand why. Can anyone explain what they try to do/avoid?

Stage 1:
Using a screwdrivew to push tensioner spring to maximum tension position and tighten the tension roller mounting nut at centre.
Rotate the crankshaft through 2 turns.

Stage 2:
Untighten tension roller mounting nut and push the blade of tension roller to bring the tension index opposite the adjustment point. (There is a mark on the tensioner)
Tighten tension roller mounting nut to 2.5 daN.m

I wonder what is the rationale behind this? I know I can just follow the instruction but really would like to know the rationale...

john55 · Jan 31, 2008

I guess they do it to make sure the tension on the belt is even all the way round, before finally setting the tensioner. You could get a slack piece of belt between 2 of the pullies, adjust the tensioner and do up the nut, then find when the slack comes out, the tensioner has gone down to its limit and is no longer tensioning the belt.
On mine, I just set the tensioner to max, did up the nut, and it came back to about the middle of its range when I turned the engine round, so I left it.

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