Hi
Have a couple of questions here, am looking to take the head of my 1998 1.2 60s Punto soon just wondered would a 3/8" drive breaker bar 18" long be strong enough to give enough leverage to loosen the head bolts without snapping the drive ?

Also need to buy a socket for the breaker bar, please can anyone confirm the size I need to get, looked at the Haynes but can not see any mention of socket size needed.

Thanks.

3/8" is very light for this sort of work, again buying one socket is not very economical either. Aldi/Lidl do a very good and great value for money set that is usually 1/2" and 1/4". 1/2" drive is a very useful size and you will have plenty of sockets for most jobs. Not sure what size the head studs are but you will need several sizes to remove other bits and pieces. If you intend to do any car maintenance in the future invest in a decent set, it will also give you a socket for spark plugs. Another point is why are you removing the head? Is there a problem? If so you will definitely need a decent socket set.

Digger58
Thanks for the reply, I have a ratchet socket set that does most jobs but more concerned about the undoing of the head bolts and having enough strength in the drive so not to shear it.
I also thought that 3/8 drive looked a little on the light weight side, I will go for a 1/2 inch drive breaker bar to do the job, I have a torque wrench but would not attempt to use it as a break bar.
Yes, Lidl/Aldi do some useful socket sets and tools in general at reasonable prices too.
I am removing the head as oil is being lost from the head gasket, need to see if its cost effective to repair + when removed I will be able to see if the head has any damage as this started after I had the HG replaced by a garage some time back.

I am removing the head as oil is being lost from the head gasket, need to see if its cost effective to repair + when removed I will be able to see if the head has any damage as this started after I had the HG replaced by a garage some time back.

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When you undo the head bolts, undo them in reverse sequence to the tightening order ..

.and undo each bolt a little at a time. Don't completely undo one bolt then another. The idea is to gently relieve the pressure on the head as not to distort it.

The head gasket isn't a big job, but it is messy, annoying and arduous ... and having said that, it is very UNlikely there is any damage to the head / gasket. Don't create work for yourself.

If your head gasket is weeping oil to atmosphere, try gently tightening the head bolts .. just a 'nip'. Head bolts are supposed to be rechecked-retorqued some 500 miles after any head work has been done.

Personally, given the cost of replacing coolant/oil/gaskets, bandages for skinned knuckles and the price of a head skim ..not to mention the many hours involved .. I'd first try something like :
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1313.TR5.TRC1.A0.H0.Xoilstop+leak.TRS0&_nkw=oilstop+leak&_sacat=0

If you're worried about a blown head, try something like steel sealer, which has a good reputation:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_odkw=oilstop+leak&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR4.TRC2.A0.H0.Xhead+sealer.TRS0&_nkw=head+sealer&_sacat=0

If it's not broken, don't fix it

The head bolts are likely to be 17 or 19mm so if you have a "socket set" then chances are that the right socket is in there.

As above, buy a decent socket set .. best one you can afford.

I'd go for a 1/2" set because (as you noticed) you'll be able to give the beast a whole lot more force without worrying about the tool. On the other hand, for most jobs a 3/8" socket is lighter and less tiring to use. I don't see why a 3/8" breaker bar can't undo a head bolt - head bolts are generally not "seized" so ought to come undone fairly easily.

But the socket set you buy depends on what jobs you think are going to be in the range of your DIY skills/interest to undertake. Anything involving suspension and gearboxes will need a 1/2" jobbie.

You will also definitely need a 1/4" ratchet and sockets in your toolbox too.

I'd steer clear of the very cheap "72 pieces for £9.99" types of sets. If they fracture when you're really leaning on them, the dental bills/cocaine to dull the pain will cost more than spending £42 on something like a Halfords Professional set.

http://www.halfords.com/workshop-to...nced-modular-tray-set-26-piece-socket-set-1-2

Don't use a ratchet to untighten seized or highly torqued bolts. As you guess, you'll knacker it. Also torque wrenches are just for torqueing-up .. never for untightening.

Are you sure it's the head gasket that's leaking? It's unusual for oil to escape out of the HG and not also find its way into the cylinder or the coolant channels. If you're loosing oil out the back (exhaust smoke) or have oil in the coolant (mayonnaise goo under the filler) then that could be a head gasket.. but if the only sign is an oil leak, then it could be coming from the rocker cover, or the camshaft oil seal (on the left of the engine as you look at it). This is just a top end (1/4" ratchet) job.


Ralf S.

IIRC, head bolts are 13 mm. Torque when tightening is first 20 Nm, then 30 Nm, then 90° - twice. Tightening pattern is often included with new gasket.
I can recommend Stanley FatMax black chrome set. Not the cheapest, but one does not buy tools like this every year. BUY a set with hexagonal sockets, DO NOT buy a set with twelve-pointed star sockets.

Glenn2602 ~ Ralf S ~ CZ Enda
Thanks for the wise words & detailed infos ... well another problem has occurred, the cam is being starved of oil had some nasty loud tapping all of a sudden got home and removed rocker cover put a clear cover over cam and cranked engine ... no oil at all to cams.

I am assuming that the oil pump is pushing oil around the engine ok as I drove a few miles home with the loud tapping from the cams, no nasty noises from the engine (lower half crank etc) so assuming oil pump working.

I think this problem of oil being fired out of the HG (under pressure) has a bearing on the second problem, possibly the gasket has either been fitted so poorly and a small part has come away and found its way into the oil supply feed to the cam shaft, none of the oil ports are showing any oil coming out.

Looking a bigger job than I anticipated, I will buy a 1/2 breaker bar and a good socket set to tackle this job, will avoid the very cheap socket sets as will have to buy again, I do most of the easier jobs on my Punto like starter/alternator replacement but I decided to let a garage do the HG, what a mistake should have been more braver myself.

Thanks to you all for your info and reply's

Peter.

Yes... that does sound more serious. You should have oil, so if nothing is coming up the oilways you could have a knackered oil pump.

The problem is that you may have damage to some other components - the cam and crankshaft bearings are pretty fragile as soon as their supply of oil disappears, so they may be scored.

For the trouble/expense involved in replacing the oil pump and re-building the motor (assuming that is the only problem too...) I'd look at just replacing the engine with a second-hand one. Punto 1.2 engines are pretty cheap (£100-£150) so it may be better to save and your time and energy.

If you remove the motor to fix it or to replace it, fit a new cam-belt and water pump (although on a Punto they're pretty simple with the engine in place) and also check the condition of the clutch/master cylinder. It's best to not fit anything remotely worn out - you won't want any more dramas for a very long time after this one.


Ralf S.

Mmmm, oil out the headgasket and no oil from the oil squirters for camshaft... I think they might have either used the wrong HG or put it on upside down or something.

I have had oil seep from the head gasket before after doing a swap and so I took it all apart again and I had got he gasket the right way and for the life of me couldn't workout why it happened, I can only assume at this point I torqued incorrectly by accident or missed a head bolt or something

I tend to agree with Ralf that it very well may have caused some serious damage, it really doesn't take long to damage the cam and its bearings once oil supply is gone. Whatever you do don't run it anymore!! Nothing here is expensive really, I'd still advise taking it apart and inspecting it, you don't have anything to lose at this point. You could whip the cam caps off and pull out cam and inspect it before going deeper.

-I'd pull the cam and inspect it. Its not huge loss if its damaged, if there was ever an excuse to fit a 866 cam from a P75 this would be it. Think Lecook has one for sale. Failing that you could use a cam out of many 8v engines just fine.
-To do that the little oil line that feeds the camshaft needs to come off first so you can check thats not blocked, if it is just leave it soaking in some kerosine for a bit and should be fine.
-After that its not many more bolts to pull the head, pull that off, check the gasket has been fitted with the 'alto' mark facing upwards - check all the holes on head/block line up with the new gasket - I know for example the 16v fire HG fits but one of the oil galleries is on opposite side - that would starve head of oil and cause a leak for sure. And of course check for any damage.

Oil pump itself is a bit harder to test but with the head off it should not take too much spinning of the crank for oil to start coming up through the holes in the block - not a definitive test but if it doesnt the oil pump could be knackered. I really doubt the pump has failed though, thats pretty rare. My money is on the HG being upside down or jsut the wrong one myself.

And as above, when putting back together get a new waterpump, timing belt and tensioner - you should use new headbolts too, i know quite a few people reuse them but they are stretch bolts and should be used once and replaced the next time. They are usually 13mm hex heads

Tools required for all that is not alot, few spanners and just a few sockets. I use a 3/8 torque wrench on my headbolts as the torque settings required are bang on in the middle of its range but i take it all apart with 1/2 stuff. Strongly recommend a halford pro set for a diy'er - if for no other reason that if you ever break anything they will replace it, no need for receipts or anything just take the broken bit in and they will replace it - you don't need to get the biggest most expensive set or anything.
Other than that you will want a paint pen to mark the headbolts as the last thing you do is turn them by 90 degrees twice so marking them all makes it easy to see you not missed one and how far round its turned.

after thought... If you pull the cam and the head off, you may as well change the valve seals.. Its super easy and they are usually included in a gasket set if you buy a head gasket set rather than just a head gasket. By no means required really but you can get a valve spring compressor for under £20, or just borrow/hire one.

Get a valve stem seals pliers as well, cause those seals can be really hard to take off sometimes (pliers 7€, stem seals 7€). I just finished that procces a few days ago. You should really get head gasket set (manifold gaskets...). Cause these looked really bad in my case and they're cheap. I would also lap the valves and check their leakage with petrol before and after lapping.

any imaginable job required on a Mk1 Punto can be done safely and easily with a 3/8" sq. drive socket set and medium length combination keys. The only nuts that may be very tight will be the rear stub axle nuts but only because they are crushed to securely lock them. I never go near my 1994 Punto with anything other than 3/8". Get single hexagon flank drive sockets not bihexagon.

rolandbrindley said:

any imaginable job required on a Mk1 Punto can be done safely and easily with a 3/8" sq. drive socket set and medium length combination keys. The only nuts that may be very tight will be the rear stub axle nuts but only because they are crushed to securely lock them. I never go near my 1994 Punto with anything other than 3/8". Get single hexagon flank drive sockets not bihexagon.

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You really believe that? Undoing a wheel stud? CV joint removal? Clutch replacement??? I suppose all the main dealers only use 3/8" then? Doing a job with 3/8" sockets WILL result in skinned knuckles and more.You need 1/2" for most and 3/4" for others, don't try and fool yourself with small tools, it's not worth all the hassle and loss of skin when something breaks!

I have a full set 3/4 Elora bihexagon sockets and puller bars - next to useless for almost any car work, a waste of money over 50 years ago, it's tractor stuff. Also 1/2 comprehensive set bihexagon of mixed makes, and again too heavy and unnecessary for most if not all car work apart from the very odd application. 3/8 if quality stuff will do almost all car work and I already remarked there are exceptions but they are few and far between. If I need more leverage I pull with a pipe slipped over the T bar handle, you will not bend or break qualitry tools like this, nor skin your knuckles. If I need more depth or a larger size than in the 3/8 set I use a 1/2 socket with a 1/2 to 3/8 adapter, and pull with my 3/8 bars and extensions. I still have my SnapOn 3/8 flank drive set which I bought over 30 years ago and have never damaged any through misuse or overloading. I have done most jobs on my Punto 55 also Ducato TD10 and never touch bigger than 3/8 with the exception of the front hub nuts on the Ducato and the rear hub nuts on the Punto. The only bolt I have ever had to resort to a 3/4 socket was the Ford 1753cc diesel crank pulley bolt - always dead tight as it has to be. As for wheel nuts, buy an impact driver like I did from Machine Mart, and never touch a wheelbrace again. But it's no good buying cheapo tools, you get what you pay for, try SnapOn or Irimo, they are just the best there is, but there are other quality makes, and even some Chinese stuff turns out to be unbreakable since British Steel created the Chinesse steel industry, and they learned well. And only tighten things up enough, so you can get them off again without a fight.

Don't know why you say your 3/4" is next to useless for car work!!! I have a Draper 3/4" that I recently used on my Grande Punto to take off the subframe! I'd love to see you try and shift that with 3/8" or even 1/2", better to have it than not when you need it, I agree that you don't always need heavy gear but when you need it you need it.I seldom use my 3/8" mostly 1/2" and 1/4". Most of my 1/2" is old Draper from the 70's and good stuff., My general stuff is a kit of 1/2" and 1/4" from Magnesson which is good quality.Everything has its use but 1/2" in decent quality is the mainstay of most DIYers and indeed mechanics. I also have an air gun again 1/2". Without doubt they are the most used. Don't see the point in having to have all types of tubes to put on bars, just get decent leverage to start with.

I think the comment on 3/4 is because his smallest 3/4 socket is too big for anything on his car.