Hi,

I'm new to the forum and in need of answers, so I apologise if this has already been covered somewhere else. I've just bought a W Reg Punto, and it appears to be a little bit broken:

1. The engine shakes, sounds like it could be backfiring
2. The car is very unresponsive in terms of gear and speed - it does about 50mph in 5th with foot to the floor
3. The engine is over heating (maybe as a result of 1))
4. The fuel I put in the car to cover driving it back seemed to disappear. Approximately 4 litres of fuel seems to have been used within a 12-15 mile drive.

Any help/advice would be greatly appreciated - particularly if it involves little or minimal cost.

chaardy said:

Hi,

I'm new to the forum and in need of answers, so I apologise if this has already been covered somewhere else. I've just bought a W Reg Punto, and it appears to be a little bit broken:

1. The engine shakes, sounds like it could be backfiring
Backfiring is when unburnt fuel is given enough heat to ignite, the engine shaking and knowing that punto's are known for mis-firing its a good chance either a Plug has given up, the HT lead is earthing instead, or the other well known Coil Pack issue
Start with Plugs and leads, as there cheap and easy todo, then if the "shaking" dont stop its next stop coils, again there not too expensive, and its all DIY stuff


2. The car is very unresponsive in terms of gear and speed - it does about 50mph in 5th with foot to the floor
Links to No1 really, its asking you to run with only 1 leg, sure you can do it, but no way near as good as if you had 2. I would guess sorting one will sort this one too
Remember tho 4th and 5th really aint speedy gears, there cruising gears, yes the car works hapily in them tho, but as said consider point 1 before looking at this issue, as they are linked in my eyes

3. The engine is over heating (maybe as a result of 1))
Now, when you say overheating, You mean the Overheat light is on?
eitherway, check there is Fluid in the Coolant Bottle, as lack of fluid is why the car overheats, but when you consider point 1 2 and 3 all together, its looking like a possible HG
Get the Cooling system Fully Refilled, Bled up and see if fluid is been lost and if the OVerheat has stopped, however if the HG has gone, the Overheat will come practically straight back along with the miss-fire and no performance

4. The fuel I put in the car to cover driving it back seemed to disappear. Approximately 4 litres of fuel seems to have been used within a 12-15 mile drive.
Roughly that means you doing less then 12mpg, which for the punto isn't good
even when i have my hammer foot, i averages 32mph, happily running i can get upto 50mpg but that never lasts, i regulary cruise around 40, but every car is different
However fuel going nowhere has 1 of 2 options
1 - its pissing out onto the floor
2 - the engine is burning it, now this COULD potentially lead to no1, no2, no3 as well as this, the Lamba sensors are overfueling the car, now when they fail too much fuel is put into the cylinders, as a result you can actually Mis-fire due to not enough air in the air to fuel mixture ratio. it would also explain why you are getting poor economy
its abit hard to target which one really is at fault

Start with the Cooling system - get it filled and Bled up
Overfill the Coolant resivoiur Open the radiator Valve, and squeeze the bottom rad hose, if water gush's out then no air there, if air does escape, hold the pipe, close the valve, and relase your hand, you should head the Cap on the Rad suck air in = good
Repeat till the Radiator Valve lets only fluid out
But keeping an eye on the water level
Same again for the Rear Bleed valve - open - squeese - close - release
Till All the air is expelled and only fluid escapes
make sure the fluid level is at max, or just sligtly over
Run the engine, wait till the fan kicks in
if the engine overheats - Switch off, you dont want to stress the head, but the damage may have been done from the previous overheat
When its cool see if there fluid still, if its gone
it says why you have a mis-fire, the overheat as well

But if that remains fine, i'd be probably looking with FIAT ecu (free edition) scan and diag cable, see what the ECu says the voltages for the lamba's are
0.1 is VERY lean
0.5 is Spot on / good mix
1.0v is VERY RICH

Anyway i'm going to stop rambeling now and let you get on with bleeding

Any help/advice would be greatly appreciated - particularly if it involves little or minimal cost.

Click to expand...

My answers are in bold btw
Ziggy

Also, one further problem (though not effecting the mechanics of the car) - the radio displays the word 'check', despite frequent button pushing.

Thanks for the helpful advice - will try what you've suggested, and keep you updated. If it is literally the plugs and leads, the car is a steal!

Rich

chaardy said:

Also, one further problem (though not effecting the mechanics of the car) - the radio displays the word 'check', despite frequent button pushing.

Thanks for the helpful advice - will try what you've suggested, and keep you updated. If it is literally the plugs and leads, the car is a steal!

Rich

Click to expand...

i believe that Check is different to CODE
Check i think is something todo with a different punto's stereo been put into your car
But not sure on that

If the Plugs and leads cause so many problems, but overheating i dont think so
But defo Sort bleed and plugs and report back

Ziggy

Changed the spark plugs and HT cables - the only result being a smoother start up, but shaking still continued.

Looking to do the coil packs next - what exactly would you recommend buying? is it just the coil pack, or do I need the ignition coils, ignition modules and control modules???

You've been a great help - saves on getting a garage to look at it and forking out for that.

Rich

There are 5 elements to a Ignition System

ECU - Wiring - Coil Pack - HT leads - Sparkies

i'd be looking next is Coil Packs, BUT follow Daves guide about seeing if there is a dodgey Coil Pack
Linky

If the Check pass's as Okay, i'd be possibly looking at possible Lamba's

Have you done the Coolant Bleed and Run to see if it overheats next and if the water is disappearing or not?

Ziggy

I did indeed do the coolant bleed and run - neither over heats nor did any water disappear. I'm thinking it overheated originally because I drove it a fair distance whilst it was, as I call it, 'put putting' - sounding like a 4 stroke bike!

if the misfire was the overheating, then atleast its a step forward
A Car SHOULDN't Overheat when on a long drive, the air rushing past the radiator should keep the car cool enough, when you slow down or stop (ideling) then the fan should take over

So it makes me wonder if your fan is working?

Ziggy

If its worse when hot, suspect the lambdas or the crank sensor.

Car should never overheat when its moving the fans are only needed in VERY slow traffic. Overheating at speed means there is not enough coolant or its not being moved. So look for leaks and check the water pump pumping and look for blockage.

Radiator bottom hose should be cool & top hose hot. If both are hot you have a dodgy water pump or stuck thermostat.

could be ecu failure. if it is pm me I've got a cheap ecu for sale

paul12345 said:

could be ecu failure. if it is pm me I've got a cheap ecu for sale

Click to expand...

I'll highlight that
IT COULD BE

Wish people didnt throw ecu's around like money, they need to be diagnosed first
Via dave's guide

Ziggy

I'm going to get it diagnosed first, and see what the actual problem is. If it is the ECU, how much would it be?

Ziggy122 said:

I'll highlight that
IT COULD BE

Wish people didnt throw ecu's around like money, they need to be diagnosed first
Via dave's guide

Ziggy

Click to expand...

No-one said it shouldn't be diagnosed first, but if its not the headgasket etc then theres a good chance that it is the ecu, there dont always fire on 2 cyclinders when faulty.

paul12345 said:

No-one said it shouldn't be diagnosed first, but if its not the headgasket etc then theres a good chance that it is the ecu, there dont always fire on 2 cyclinders when faulty.

Click to expand...

Spark plugs & HT cables - check
Coil packs replaced - check
Coolant done - check.
Problems still exist. The final option I'm considering is either ecu or headgasket, neither of which are too expensive to replace. it's more a matter of time than anything - can ecu's be replaced myself or will I need to pay labour costs to get this done?

Saying that, the problem is that its almost certainly running on 2 cylinders.

Yes the ecu is easy to change. remove the air filter box (2 bolts) then 2 bolts and 2 clips to take the ecu off.

Then you will need to run the engine till warm and rev to over 5000 rpm then let it go back to idle (do this 3-4 times) then all done

paul12345 said:

Yes the ecu is easy to change. remove the air filter box (2 bolts) then 2 bolts and 2 clips to take the ecu off.

Then you will need to run the engine till warm and rev to over 5000 rpm then let it go back to idle (do this 3-4 times) then all done

Click to expand...

Has anyone used this or can anyone recommend this: http://item.mobileweb.ebay.co.uk/viewitem?itemId=250901423464. I can pick up 2nd hand ecu's from £40 out of car breakers... Does it make a difference in getting a self learning one?

chaardy said:

Has anyone used this or can anyone recommend this: http://item.mobileweb.ebay.co.uk/viewitem?itemId=250901423464. I can pick up 2nd hand ecu's from £40 out of car breakers... Does it make a difference in getting a self learning one?

Click to expand...

Yes you can not do anything with a 2nd hand ecu unless you are going to replace the bodycomputer too, and then you need to change the transponder in the keys + also may have to realign the dash.

Aaaargh! Find out wwhat cylinders are misfiring. If it's a paired couple, swap over the leads to that coil. If the cylinders follow the coil, it's got to be the coil pack or the LT side.

Hi, you haven't made any mention of white smoke coming out of your exhaust.
If it's the head gasket you should be getting that, mine was chuffing smoke like gandalf's beard, as well as doing all the misfiring etc.

If you can get your hands on a compression tester and get the engine warmed up you can put the tester into the spark plug hole and watch the pressure in each cylinder as you turn the engine over.

In theory you should find a difference in the reading for one of the cylinders if the gasket is gone on that cylinder.

If it is the headgasket then the leading cause is over heating caused by a failure inthe cooling system.

If you don't fix that cooling system problem the new gasket will go as well.
It could be a broken or leaking water pump, which is easy enough to replace or something else that's harder to trace.

There was a small channel gouged out of my cylinder head on the cylinder rim so I had it skimmed and pressure tested.
I've just put it all back together but I think it's still over heating and looks like the white smoke is back too.

The engine sounds way, way better than it did, *almost* back to normal but there's something still not right ....

If you fancy tackling the head gasket you'll need some tools and somewhere to work on it and you also need to allow for it being off the road for a while if you run into any problems.
For some people it's a few hours elbow grease for other's it's a bit of an adventure.

The problem with these cars is that the radiator is too small for the engine / car and the filler neck for the coolant is lower than the highest point in the system.
That means that they run hot to start with and if any air gets in the system it makes an airlock at the highest point in the system.
An airlock can block the coolant from flowing so the head can overheat and warp or distort and then the seal is broken even if the gasket or the head isn't actually damaged.

You can pick up a recon head for about 150 and the gasket kit is about 40 quid.
A skim and pressure test would probably cost about 80 plus if you can find somewhere to do it.
It's recommended that you use new head bolts but you don't automatically have to.

Prob the best investment you can make is in a can of penetrating fluid for undoing stuck bolts.
spray it on then tap them with a hammer and spray again and repeat over and over until they come undone.

After that you need a good socket kit and car jack and jack stands .
I used the punto carjack to support the engine as it doesn't drop if you leave it overnight the way the oil filled jacks do.

buy a roll of sandwich bags and a felt tip marker and get a digital camera or use your phone.
before you take something off the car take a pic as it is and then put whatever you take off into a sandwich bag and write a name on the bag, then take a pic of the name written on the bag so you have the pics of whatever it is on the car together with the pic of the stuff in the bag for when you put it all back together, trust me you will end up with a bag with some bits in it and stand there scratching your head for a while.
Little plastic bins or other containers are great and get a big cardboard box or something that you can keep everything in, so it's all in one place.
Get yourself some liquid gasket too, you can re-use some gaskets with the help of some of that stuff.

I don't recommend it in place of getting new gaskets, like for the rocker cover but if you're stuck on Sunday night for a new gasket ( because you lost the one you bought somewhere under all the junk ) it's a life saver. until you can get a new one of course. ahem.

mark anything that can move and needs to go back to it's original position.
If you have to buy a metal scriber and use it to scrape thin lines on metal components to mark positions. Otherwise you can use tipex.
Also if you undo a connector make a tipex mark across it like an x so you can see how it goes back together.
Make sure each one has a uniqe mark, so use an x and then a v or whatever.
That way you can't get them mixed up.

You can get a tool called a scriber for scraping very thin lines into metal to mark them.
I didn't tell you to scribe ( make ) a tiny mark on the unground ( rough ) part of your camshaft to mark it's position in case it moves or gets moved.If I did though I'd say take a photo of it as well so you can get it back exactly in place because if you get your head skimmed a scribed mark is the only thing that will survive the cleaning process at the engine shop.

If you need to turn the cam shaft or the crank shaft get a *soft* piece of timber like a 4 x2 and put the corner edge into the teeth on the wheel and put the other end of the timber to your shoulder like a rifle stock.
Just lean over onto the timber and drop from the knees and your weight will turn the wheel no bother and you can control it really precisely just by how much you lean on it if you just need to turn it by one tooth on the wheel.

you'll also need to get some soft timber and cut pieces to go on top of your jackstands cos the punto has a little rim about an inch tall that runs along the bottom of the sill where the jack hooks into it.
If you look at the jack you'll see it has a chanel in it which the rim sits into.
Just get a saw and cut a channel into the timber by sawing about an inch deep all the way across and then move the sawblade over and widen your cut by sawing next to the first cut until you have a trench across the wood.
You can use another bit of timber at right angles to the one you're cutting to guide the blade straight.
That will then fit on top of your jackstand and go between the stand and the car so you don't destroy that little rim in case you ever need to jack the car up to change a wheel.

Anyway it's late and I better go to bed.
good luck with it whatever you decide to do.