Hello.

So my green panda 4x4 climbing from circa 2004 had this little rust-hole under the door, so I bought a welder, some sheet metal, and started cleaning... and the hole got bigger and bigger, and inside the hole the front-to-back carrying beam emerged, also red and holed from rot.

As this is not something I can do myself, but have to have someone who is professional do, I had to take off the licenseplates, insurance etc - and she is now stranded in my driveway, taunting me... comatosed and lifeless..

my plan is to take her apart as much as at all possible, so I can clean and oil all the parts so the rust stops here, I'm thinking should I take out the motor, brakes, and everything and prepare her for a repaint while im at it?

Over the last years time I've given her a new motor, new propshaft, new driveshafts, new seats, battery and other simple maintainance. and I was about to mount new wheelbearings.


What would you do?

TobiasBB said:

What would you do?

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Realistically, it's a low value 13yr old end-of-life car with serious structural corrosion.

Personally, I'd scrap it. Spending money on further repairs will likely just be throwing good money after bad.

It's hard to let go of a car you've spent a lot of time and money on. I know, I've been there. But both its use and its value are limited by what's wrong with it now, not what you've put right in the past.

Sad story indeed.
Do you know what started the rust hole? Was it damaged at some point in the past?
It would make a difference to my next steps, because some localised rust on a Panda shell because of a poor repair would probably mean just focusing on repair of that area, followed by all-over rust prevention.
If it is not localised then I would need to be deciding whether to scrap it or throw time and money at it for sentimental reasons.
We have a similar situation with our Panda Sporting. It had a replacement outer wing at some time in its life, and has got some rust bubbling up on the inner wing, where it was repaired rather than replaced. I have treated the rust to slow it down, but I will need to do more to it eventually.
Everywhere else it is pretty much rust-free, so I reckon it's worth stripping the front end and fixing it properly.
If the rust had been all over, with no obvious cause, I would have a much more difficult choice to make.

jrkitching said:

It's a low value 13yr old end-of-life car with serious structural corrosion.

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As much as this is true, I can not buy a new one as the 4x4 Pandas are not sold in Denmark (first thing I did was going to the dealer and say "how much?") depending on shape and age they go from 3500-9000-ish uk£ where I live - and there are 15 left, so they only sell rarely.

But your reply is very rational, and I should consider it..

irc said:

Sad story indeed.
Do you know what started the rust hole? Was it damaged at some point in the past?

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its on both sides, I'm guessing lack of rust treatment

irc said:

If it is not localised then I would need to be deciding whether to scrap it or throw time and money at it for sentimental reasons.

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Its showing minor traces of rust elsewhere, but mostly where the paint has been scratched, but thats nothing major...
Insurance+taces run to about 700£ annually, and as its not my only car (or panda) taking the plates off gives a good budget to be silly sentimental.

irc said:

We have a similar situation with our Panda Sporting. It had a replacement outer wing at some time in its life, and has got some rust bubbling up on the inner wing, where it was repaired rather than replaced. I have treated the rust to slow it down, but I will need to do more to it eventually.
Everywhere else it is pretty much rust-free, so I reckon it's worth stripping the front end and fixing it properly.
If the rust had been all over, with no obvious cause, I would have a much more difficult choice to make.

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Rust is a never-ending car-eater, I would in theory treat my car every second year (only been a car owner for 2 so far) I'm thinking as long as its not structural, its OK to just sand it, seal it, and respray that area?

The shortage of 4x4s over there changes the economic balance a bit, but it still depends on what it will cost to get the major repairs done professionally, and what you are willing to pay.

Over here there are plenty to choose from, so it would be much easier to cut your losses and replace it.

Have a really good prod all over the 4x4 to make sure you know what's needed before you decide.

If you do go ahead with repairs, make sure all of the work done is properly rustproofed, especially the parts which get covered over.

Considering the costs of a repair and the risk there is corrosion lurking elsewhere you could consider importing a newer UK car. Then swap the dash and steering to Left hand drive before registering it in Denmark. After all, you already have those items.

In case it crosses your mind, you can't (easily) take a 2WD and convert it to 4WD. In any case, it would be a lot of work and the result would still be an old car.

Playing devil's advocate here ... sometimes it is better to keep and fix what you know than to start afresh with an unknown quantity.

This is sometimes true of a low value vehicle also. It may have a low market value, but to you it may represent a higher value, due to familiarity and other considerations. Buying spares which might cost almost as much as the car's worth is not always a stupid thing to do. Each of us has to make a personal decision on this, and what is right for one might not be for another.

If the cost of a fix will give you another couple of years, it can often be worth doing.

I did consider moving the parts from the 4wd to the 2wd, but it wouldnt be road-legal here... so even if it was feasable, it would not get through a tech-inspection.

I was considering importing one, but not from the UK, but from lets say somewhere dry in italy with no rot, but as I would have to pay import-tax it would make fixing what I have much cheaper.. also by stripping this old girl down I'd get to insulate her with noise-dampeners and paint it a slightly darker shade of green than it is at present. AND I'd get to sand off any and all rust and repaint everything.. and perhaps consider finding someone to mount LSD in the differentials...

And as much as it's an old car, then familiarity means I know which parts are good, and which are old, furthermore as its the family's third car, and we are 2 who can drive, its not crucial to have it up and running tomorrow...

I had a talk with a family-member from the wifes side of the family who's a mechanic - he said having someone weld the actual issue, should not cost much if I do all the stripping down and preperation..

So for now I'll try to see if I can find someone who could do it for a reasonable price and who would be able to make it safe again.

Are you sure there would be an import tax from within the EU - it's unlikely. However, Italians while having a dry climate in the south really don't in the north. They also tend to keep their cars for ever and do not seem too concerned about cosmetic dings and bumps.

So finding a good 169 Panda could be difficult though importing to Denmark should not be a problem.

If you are planning to do a ground up restoration, why not use a good new body shell (from any model 169 Panda) and transfer everything across. Done sensibly there would be no way to tell the finished product is not 100% the original car.

UK cars tend to be well kept but might not be the lowest cost. Some are of course are bought cheap and run cheap until they fall apart. 1.1s especially fall into that bracket. But if the body shell is good that would not matter.

DaveMcT said:

Are you sure there would be an import tax from within the EU - it's unlikely....

So finding a good 169 Panda could be difficult though importing to Denmark should not be a problem.

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Yep, we have import taxes as we have 150+% tax on vehicles (depending on price the percentage goes up)

You can even be lucky and have to pay tax as though the car is brand new if it looks nice enough going through tech-inspection.

To make an example, the closest place I could go to find another car would be sweden, any vehicle cost about half of what I would pay here.

DaveMcT said:

and do not seem too concerned about cosmetic dings and bumps.

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Ouch... painful memories of watching serial park-by-touch in Turin while drinking expresso at a pavement cafe came flooding back. Unlikely to find cars with straight panels from there....

I had investigated the costs of working for a year in Denmark a while back and was shocked by the cost of self-importing a car and registering it. And the price of parts was mind-blowing. I even queried it on the forum at the time.

Although the economics of repairing or replacing are very different from the UK, I guess the choice still really just comes down to the cost of work needed compared to the cost of replacement, possibly with any sentimental value tipping the scales a bit.

Viewing them as a foreigner, the technical inspections do seem to be much more thorough and strict than the UK test so it is possible that the standard of work done may well have to be higher in order to pass, although I suspect there are less "dodgy" repairers about as a result.
Some of the "repairs" I've seen done to keep old cars on UK roads still scare me.

If you could find a suitable donor, you may find rather than move all the bits from the 4x4 to a 2wd shell, you could move the non rusted parts of the 2wd shell over to your 4x4, keeping all the numbers on the 4x4 intact and keeping the car legal.

I had a friend many years ago from Denmark who explained to me at the time how the ridiculous taxes make any car phenomenally expensive, even total scrap that everyone else would send off on the scrap boat to china, can still be worth thousands.

I dont think the tech inspections are that thorrough, it usually takes less than 20 minutes, and a short drive.. but they do check brakes, exhaust, legal requirements such as lights etc., and structural integrity..

"sentimental value" was what got me in to this thing in the first place... "a 4x4 panda"... its been on my wishlist since before I had a license

I have thought of migrating parts from a 2wd, but since I have pretty much restored or changed all mechanical partsl, its just the metal that shapes the body which is left... I'm thinking that part would be as rotten on any old panda...

I don't know if the 2WD body shell is the same as the 4WD, but one option could be to import the body shell only not the whole car. It's a spare part after all.

Quite possibly, a 2WD body with no engine or wheels would count as a spare shell. You could even remove the subframes as these are different on the 4x4. UK are of course right hand drive but again you'll be taking all that out and the dash panels and parts from your car will swap all that over.

The VIN numbers can be cut out of both shells and the old number welded into the new shell and the welds cleaned up before painting. There would be no "dodgy stuff" because it's your car and you are not trying to clone the VIN numbers as car thieves used to do.

I’ve a few rust patches - well, surface corrosion I’m told - some on the panels and some on the chassis but nothing nearing an MOT fail for a few years yet.

I seriously considered investing a lot of money into my Panda so that I can keep it for years to come. But even the most knowledgable and helpful people on here had to talk me down into the reality of the value of the car and how in probably the next decade part supply will dry up, or at least become even more expensive to source for what it’s worth.

It’s sad but maybe buying a 2012 Panda (last of our types made) you can continue to live with the same type of car?

SB1500 said:

I’ve a few rust patches - well, surface corrosion I’m told - some on the panels and some on the chassis but nothing nearing an MOT fail for a few years yet.

I seriously considered investing a lot of money into my Panda so that I can keep it for years to come. But even the most knowledgable and helpful people on here had to talk me down into the reality of the value of the car and how in probably the next decade part supply will dry up, or at least become even more expensive to source for what it’s worth.

It’s sad but maybe buying a 2012 Panda (last of our types made) you can continue to live with the same type of car?

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However with Denmark's huge tax rate on new cars (and even on used imports), it makes sense to keep the old ones running as long as possible.

So for anyone interested, I just found someone who could fix the rust, some new panels and a bit of welding and she should be as good as new, but I could propably have gotten a less rusty newer panda (2x4) for the same amount I'm paying for the fix... - Here she is on the operating table.