Hi all,

Seem to have an issue with our 2009 Eleganza which is occurring more regularly.

One seems to happen when warm, but it occasionally won't turn over. No issues with the warning lights on the dash, and no clicking like a jammed starter motor. Its a Dualogic, so can't rock in gear when starting to see if its the starter jamming.

However you can hear like an energising noise under the bonnet when the key is turned to start. As though the starter solenoid is energising? When left for a while and cold it'll then restart without issue, and sometimes won't reoccur for a few weeks / months.

Could it be a failing starter solinoid?

Do you start yours in N(eutral) or leave it in gear and apply the footbrake?
Could be brake switch playing up if you normally start it in gear (but has no effect in N).
Conversely, it could be lever switch playing up.
Starter is inhibited unless brake pressed or lever in N.
Mine was brake switch but I seem to have fixed it while investigating so never got round to changing it.

I'm inclined to believe its an issue under the bonnet rather than with the brake switch. Normally if foot isn't on the brake it'll bong on the dash to put your foot on the brake, which it doesn't. In addition to this there is a definite energising / electronic noise from under the bonnet when the key is turned to start (dad turning the key and my head under the open bonnet).

Most Easterly Pandas said:

In addition to this there is a definite energising / electronic noise from under the bonnet when the key is turned to start (dad turning the key and my head under the open bonnet).

Click to expand...

That suggests current is flowing through the solenoid when you turn the key.

Knowing you, you'll have checked the earth already so it's unlikely to be that.

The symptoms you describe could indicate a sticking solenoid, or an excessively worn brush in the starter motor, or a sticking actuator arm (less likely) - whatever, it will happen progressively more often until it fails outright. Tapping the starter casing with a suitable object whilst your dad operates the switch might both start the car and confirm the diagnosis.

I'd suggest removing the starter/solenoid, stripping down and cleaning - that may be enough to fix the problem. If the brushes are worn, but the commutator is in reasonable condition, just replace the brushes if you can source the parts; it will save you most of the price of a new starter. If you leave it too long like this and it is the brushes, then arcing will likely damage the commutator and the starter will be scrap.

I've had this happen, but only on a car that had covered a considerable (>140k) mileage. The local factor had a box of assorted brushes for £3 a set; I found some that were dimensionally the same but with different terminals, so just cut them off and soldered on the terminals from the old brushes. It was still going strong another 70,000 miles later when I sold the car. Incidentally (though this isn't your problem), the alternator did the same thing about 5000 miles later; the fix was similar, but (IIRC) the brushes were £6.95 that time! I did the washing machine motor last year and an OEM brush set for that was a staggering £65 .

The trade routinely scrap alternators/starters, but both can often be ressurected by dismantling, cleaning and brush replacement. The trick is to fix them as soon as you notice the first signs of imminent failure, before the inevitable blue smoke and burning electrical smell.

As said above, we assume you've checked the earth cable.

Next step might be a careful check with a voltmeter.
Should have battery volts at the fat cable at the solenoid. (Direct from battery positive)
When key turned to start, same battery voltage should then be present at other terminal on the solenoid, that feeds the starter itself. This may highlight problems with the terminals in the solenoid.

Heat related suggests likely brushes or solenoid connection, but could be the internal insulation in the motor breaking down when hot.

My bike (BMW 1200) has a bosch pre-engaged starter very similar looking to the Fiat starter motor. Brushes were cleaned at 50K miles. At 70K miles the bike would start from cold but got progressively more lazy when hot. One day I had a fuel problem - the few attempts while trying to diagnose the fault destroyed the starter.

The following day (cold) it tried to turn the engine but had no power.

New starter problem solved.

Thanks for the responses guys. Forgot to mention that the earth has been checked. Looks like its the starter. I think I've got a spare floating about, so will look to swap it on Monday. From memory a bit of a pig on these due to location.

Accessed from underneath I think. So as the bolts come out, it lands on your head or chest. So take care.
Whatever replacement you find, make sure the pinion has the same number of teeth. Sometimes the only difference between otherwise identical starters, so easy to miss.

Stick a second engine earth in anyway, I did this with my punto and never had any problems ever again, put it up on the top of the engine from an engine lifting point, to a bolt on top of the wheel arch

You can test the main earth with a jump lead. Clip one end to bare metal on the engine and the other end to the battery earth terminal.

If starter is the same you don't have an earth problem.

However as it's weaker when engine is hot (when less power is needed to start it) the most likely cause is the actual starter motor.