General Itchy back end ...?

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General Itchy back end ...?

kpm

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Hi

We have some bump strips on a couple of corners near us (the sort you sometimes get when on a slip road or dual carriageway approaching a junction) and when i ride over these the back end of the panda gets extremely jittery, swaying about, like the whole car is twisting trying to over-steer then grip.

Also on wet roads recently it feels REALLY easy to oversteer, no weight shift or excess speed needed, just like the front end has never ending grip and the rear has zero.

Any suggestions? I thought maybe knackered rear dampers but I had them before on another car and you could feel it in the dry, not just the wet or on bumps.

Thanks, Kris
 
It could be the tracking.

With my Panda when the tracking is out badly it wants to tuck the front end in the corners, seems more so in one direction than the other but that could just be a confidence trick.

Great fun to use to your advantage in the dry, but mine feels deadly in the wet, probably does not help that the tracking has scrubbed the tread from the tyres. Lol
 
Also on wet roads recently it feels REALLY easy to oversteer, no weight shift or excess speed needed, just like the front end has never ending grip and the rear has zero.

Any suggestions?

What's the state of the tyres?

It's important to ensure that your best tyres are on the rear.
 
All good suggestions, above.
My first suspect would be tyres, and these are easiest to check.
Examine the rear treads for general or uneven wear. Check carefully that all the tyre pressures are within limits. Read the age of the tyres (see DOT markings on sidewalls for this), because as tyres age they often harden up, giving less grip. Make sure that all four tyres are compatible - ie, same make or type, especially across each axle.

If all is well with the tyres, then investigating tracking and suspension would be the next steps.
 
My suggestion is worn out rear dampers. They can go quickly from seemingly adequate to useless.

Easy to fit, but do the top mounts first as the self cleaning bolts can easily get cross threaded and seize halfway in.
 
I can't claim to be the Oracle on this subject, mind you, I can't claim to be the Oracle on any subject, but I do get puzzled by this best tyres on the back business.

Front wheels and tyres: have to deal with 100% of drive, 100% of steering and around 75% of braking.

Rear wheels and tyres: have to deal with 25% of braking and 100% of preventing the back end from dragging on the ground.

In 43 years of driving, including (in the front wheel drive category) Lancia Y10 Turbo, Lancia Delta GT 1.6ie, Lancia Delta HF Turbo; FIAT Uno, Stilo, Panda; Alfa 156, Giulietta MA; Austin Mini (original), 1800, Metro, Rover 114, Rover 200, 400; Fiestas, Focus, Mondeos; VW Golfs and Jetta; Audi 200, A4; Vauxhall/Opel Astra/Kadett, Nova, Corsa, Cavalier, Vectra and many more, I've never had one of them oversteer.

I'm sure it happens, sometimes, but if you're going to hit someone or something, it's far more likely that you either won't have enough grip at the front under braking or not enough grip to steer round the bend. Neither of those eventualities will occur due to lack of grip at the rear.

However, incorrect tyre pressures, worn shock absorbers and worn bushes all can have an effect at the rear.
 
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The reasoning behind 'best tyres at the back' is that front wheel drive cars, particularly short ones, are near impossible to recover from a rear-wheel skid. They're so short that they swap ends very quickly and there isn't enough power or road available to drive them out of it.

So the reasoning is to avoid a rear wheel skid and particularly to avoid creating a condition where the front wheels have more grip than the rears. Cars are typically tuned by the manufacturers to understeer when pushed, as it's easier for an unskilled driver to recover from an understeer/front wheel skid condition.


My personal experience is small cars with snow tyres fitted only on the front wheels - a very bad idea.
 
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...I do get puzzled by this best tyres on the back business.

Hardly surprising given the number of different opinions and reasoning you'll find if you browse the internet on this subject. However, tyre manufacturers and national safety authorities are generally unanimous about this.

Steve has nailed it; basically putting your best rubber on the back makes the car more stable, and less likely to spin dangerously out of control. The biggest downside is you're sacrificing absolute braking performance. At the end of the day, a longer stopping distance under control is better than spinning out and being a passenger.

IMO this is one of the more unbiased articles, which objectively compares the relative merits of both approaches, based on real world testing.

If having the best possible tyre performance is what matters most to you, then you'd replace all four, regardless of wear. Most folks quite reasonably reckon the small safety advantage of doing this isn't worth the extra money; industry consensus is that the next best thing is to put the best tyres on the back.

Common sense should be used here; if economic considerations mean you're driving on tyres which, whilst still legal, aren't the best they could ideally be, don't push the limits.
 
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It is possible with the Panda to get controllable oversteer, but not recommended unless you really know what you're doing. Ask any track day competitor - often the quickest way round a bend is to 'set' the car, using a fast dab on the brakes while countering with a steering movement and throttle, so that it will oversteer, and hence 'turn in' earlier for the next straight. On local well known lanes, especially in wet conditions, I sometimes use this technique, and I'm sure other track-experienced drivers do also.

But the soundest advice regarding tyres is as above, because it's fail safe - always fit the best tyres at the rear.
 
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Think we need some feedback from the original poster. They not been on the forum for the last week. Lets hope its been sorted as it sounds dangerous to drive.
 
I can't claim to be the Oracle on this subject, mind you, I can't claim to be the Oracle on any subject, but I do get puzzled by this best tyres on the back business.

Front wheels and tyres: have to deal with 100% of drive, 100% of steering and around 75% of braking.

Rear wheels and tyres: have to deal with 25% of braking and 100% of preventing the back end from dragging on the ground.

In 43 years of driving, including (in the front wheel drive category) Lancia Y10 Turbo, Lancia Delta GT 1.6ie, Lancia Delta HF Turbo; FIAT Uno, Stilo, Panda; Alfa 156, Giulietta MA; Austin Mini (original), 1800, Metro, Rover 114, Rover 200, 400; Fiestas, Focus, Mondeos; VW Golfs and Jetta; Audi 200, A4; Vauxhall/Opel Astra/Kadett, Nova, Corsa, Cavalier, Vectra and many more, I've never had one of them oversteer.

I'm sure it happens, sometimes, but if you're going to hit someone or something, it's far more likely that you either won't have enough grip at the front under braking or not enough grip to steer round the bend. Neither of those eventualities will occur due to lack of grip at the rear.

However, incorrect tyre pressures, worn shock absorbers and worn bushes all can have an effect at the rear.
Totally agree with you here on a front wheel drive car, which most are these days.
In the old days when rear wheel drive was common and tyres and overall performance was bad, then the advice is reasonable. Do what is best at the time! I always put new tyres on the front of a front wheel drive car and replace front or back at 3mm. On a real wheel drive van you can feel the back go under acceleration and in my opinion much easier to correct or avoid than loss of front grip. On that case would put new on the back.. .but only because wheel spin at junctions is easy to do with a light back end rear drive.
 
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Totally agree with you here on a front wheel drive car, which most are these days.
In the old days when rear wheel drive was common and tyres and overall performance was bad, then the advice is reasonable. Do what is best at the time! I always put new tyres on the front of a front wheel drive car and replace front or back at 3mm. On a real wheel drive van you can feel the back go under acceleration and in my opinion much easier to correct or avoid than loss of front grip. On that case would put new on the back.. .but only because wheel spin at junctions is easy to do with a light back end rear drive.
When I were a lad......blah, blah, blah.....tyres were always rotated on a rear wheel drive vehicle. In other words, offside front to offside rear, offside rear to nearside rear, nearside rear to nearside front and nearside front to offside front. In that way, by the time you'd done that three or four times the tyres were pretty well knackered and had worn fairly evenly. Although I think I might have forgotten the spare in all that.

On modern rear wheel drive cars, Jaguars, Mercs, BMWs and the likes the spare would possibly be a space saver, or even a get-you-home tyre gunk thingy-wotsit, but would, in any case, be a steel wheel rather than the other four which would be alloy, so a straight forward front to rear swap would be the order of the day.

On my Panda about 35,000 miles ago I fitted four brand new Avons and 2,000 miles ago junked the fronts for Vredesteins and kept the Avons on the rear which still have plenty of tread left.

When the rears wear out I'll move the Vredesteins to the back and fit new ones on the front.
 
Hardly surprising given the number of different opinions and reasoning you'll find if you browse the internet on this subject. However, tyre manufacturers and national safety authorities are generally unanimous about this.

Steve has nailed it; basically putting your best rubber on the back makes the car more stable, and less likely to spin dangerously out of control. The biggest downside is you're sacrificing absolute braking performance. At the end of the day, a longer stopping distance under control is better than spinning out and being a passenger.

IMO this is one of the more unbiased articles, which objectively compares the relative merits of both approaches, based on real world testing.

If having the best possible tyre performance is what matters most to you, then you'd replace all four, regardless of wear. Most folks quite reasonably reckon the small safety advantage of doing this isn't worth the extra money; industry consensus is that the next best thing is to put the best tyres on the back.

Common sense should be used here; if economic considerations mean you're driving on tyres which, whilst still legal, aren't the best they could ideally be, don't push the limits.
I had a look at this article and, as far as I can see, only the Michelin test differentiated between front and rear driven wheels.

On that basis, I still maintain that the wheels that do the most work should be the ones that carry the better tyres, if indeed there's a difference, which on the majority of cars there is.

If you have more worn tyres on the front, then those tyres are more likely to lose grip in an emergency stop. In that case the ABS will have to step in and help regain control. If the ABS is activated then you will take longer to stop than if the wheels didn't lock in the first place. On the Panda the front wheels have disc brakes while those at the rear (on most models) have drums. ABS is more effective on discs than drums as the pads are lighter and have less distance to travel than rear shoes. There is also weight transference to take into account. Under braking the front tyres will experience a loading due to the weight transference which can increase the grip of those tyres whereas there will be a lessening of weight on the rear tyres with a corresponding reduction in grip at that end. In the days before ABS, cars used to be fitted with a rear brake pressure sensing valve which would reduce the pressure to the rear brakes in order to lessen the possibility of a skid.

On that basis, I'd rather have the most braking performance on the tyres that will be doing the most to help me stop. The front tyres. If the rear tyres were more important than the front when braking the discs would be on the back and the drums on the front. On Pandas with discs on all four wheels, the fronts are always bigger than the rears, surely this means they are more powerful than the ones at the back; if they are more powerful then they need more grip.

Remember, the purpose of ABS wasn't so you could stop quicker, but so you could brake hard while steering without skidding off to the side.

When cornering, I'm going to put my safety of the tyres that do just that, and it isn't the rears. Talk of track techniques may be valid on the track, but 99% of drivers don't go on track days and race tracks almost always have nice wide grass run-off areas and gravel traps. The M60 doesn't have either; nor does the A523. Mrs. Beard and I went to Rudyard Lake this evening, had a walk round, took a few photographs and had a meal. On the way back we were stuck behind an '11' plate Focus on the A523, a road that, while not the Cat and Fiddle can be a challenging road in its own right. The person driving the Focus didn't exceed 38mph in the 50 and National Speed Limit sections and 32 in the 40 stretch. Setting that car up for "controlled oversteer" is the last thing on his or her mind, so, on the road, irrelevant.

You could ask your local traffic Cop (if you can find one) whether he or she has been to more crashes where a front wheel drive car understeers on a bend or where they've oversteered or spun. I'll put money on it that they've attended far more where understeer has been a factor. Alternatively, a spin has occurred where there was initial understeer and the driver over-reacted with steering or brakes, which has itself caused the spin. Even in the speed-camera-crash type fly on the wall Cop programmes, when a car being pursued crashes, it normally does so because it understeers. Get the turn-in right and you don't have to adjust through the bend as steering adjustment simply destabilses the car.

As I said in my earlier comment on this thread, in 43 years I've never oversteered a car on the road. Oversteer and understeer both have the effect of reducing speed, but as a device to slow you down, they're both rubbish.

While not doubting the accuracy of the four tests quoted, one, Michelin is a French company (and one that used to be noted for the longevity of its tyres rather than their grip) and the other three are conducted by organisations in Germany, Austria and Switzerland. All four countries have two things that we in the UK don't get much of. Ice and snow. With that in mind, I think you have to consider that those tests will reflect the driving conditions in those countries. I only de-iced my car three times last winter.
 
I run two sets of wheels (one Winter, one Summer). I always put my best tyres on the front at changeover time. Simple reason - Front tyres wear more than the rear so by changing front to back, I wear the whole set out and replace all 4 tyres at once. Always cross my fingers that I don't end up replacing both sets in the one year.
 
If you have more worn tyres on the front, then those tyres are more likely to lose grip in an emergency stop. In that case the ABS will have to step in and help regain control.

You could ask your local traffic Cop (if you can find one) whether he or she has been to more crashes where a front wheel drive car understeers on a bend or where they've oversteered or spun. I'll put money on it that they've attended far more where understeer has been a factor. Alternatively, a spin has occurred where there was initial understeer and the driver over-reacted with steering or brakes, which has itself caused the spin. Even in the speed-camera-crash type fly on the wall Cop programmes, when a car being pursued crashes, it normally does so because it understeers. Get the turn-in right and you don't have to adjust through the bend as steering adjustment simply destabilses the car.

As I said in my earlier comment on this thread, in 43 years I've never oversteered a car on the road. Oversteer and understeer both have the effect of reducing speed, but as a device to slow you down, they're both rubbish.

While not doubting the accuracy of the four tests quoted, one, Michelin is a French company (and one that used to be noted for the longevity of its tyres rather than their grip) and the other three are conducted by organisations in Germany, Austria and Switzerland. All four countries have two things that we in the UK don't get much of. Ice and snow. With that in mind, I think you have to consider that those tests will reflect the driving conditions in those countries. I only de-iced my car three times last winter.


Ok, I'll bite. I'm not disagreeing with you regarding the fact that most of the breaking effort is done by the front wheels.

As already said, car manufacturers set cars up to understeer when pushed. A look at the suspension geometry for a 'normal' car will confirm this. Figures I have in front of me are for the Fiat Ulysee, zero camber at the front and 1 degree negative camber at the rear. In short, increasing negative camber increases the grip when cornering.

Why do manufacturers set the car with understeer characteristics? It's because understeer is generally accepted as the less dangerous option. Understeer is fairly controlable and, more to the point, controlable without experience, as generally all that is needed is to reduce throttle input.

Skidding while braking is slightly different, but, if the car fails to stop, or runs wide while cornering, the result will mostly be a frontal collision, which the car's safety systems are heavily biased towards.

Oversteer will typically result in a side or rear collision, or a roll over (as in my accident).

Ask the traffic cop which of the crashes were most severe, those involving understeer or oversteer?


Essentially, the car manufacturers attempt to produce a car that will 'fail' in the safest way possible, by biasing rear grip when cornering.


The best answer is to change all four tyres at the same time, afterall, the manufacturer set the suspension with new tyres.


The second best is to put the best tyres on the rear, as we want to avoid oversteer at all costs.

A small amount of understeer or poor grip when braking will, hopefully, remind the driver that they need to get new tyres.


By fitting new tyres on the front, you are increasing the front grip versus the rear. If you manage to overcome the safety margin that is provided by the suspension geometry, you will have a car with sudden and severe oversteer, this generally requires new tyres on the front and very worn ones on the rear though.


There, that's the reasoning behind 'best tyres on the rear'.


As to the original question, I'm going with the worn front wishbone theory myself. It makes the front end more compliant and therefor makes the rear feel 'loose'.


Controlled oversteer on a racetrack and uncontrolled oversteer on the road are very different things.
 
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