General Itchy back end ...?

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General Itchy back end ...?

I'll bite too... FWD cars aren't setup by the factory to understeer. It's just the way they behave. (worse if the engine is heavier).
I think oversteer in a FWD only occurs when you are really low on thread (less then 2,5mm) in very wet conditions.
I do exactly what Smurfette does and it always worked for me. Even or especially when I did 80.000. Km a year.

gr J
 
I'll bite too... FWD cars aren't setup by the factory to understeer. It's just the way they behave. (worse if the engine is heavier).
I think oversteer in a FWD only occurs when you are really low on thread (less then 2,5mm) in very wet conditions.
I do exactly what Smurfette does and it always worked for me. Even or especially when I did 80.000. Km a year.

gr J

Not entirely true. The old Austin Mini gripped so well at the back they had to reduce rear grip by building in positive camber. A cheap mod was to file out the tops of the rear swing arm pivots at the outer ends. This put the wheels square to the road and improved rear end grip. Similar things were done at the front by extending the bottom swings arms.

The Austin Mini front end was built with positive camber to lighten the steering and sod the negative handling (understeer) effects.

Fiats (as do most modern cars) have a torsion beam are axle that transfers spring effort across the car. This reduces body roll but also reduces rear grip. The balance between grip and body roll is a compromise. IMO the 500 axle with it's additional anti roll bar grips better than the plain 169 Panda axle but Ive not tested them against each other so it could be all all my mind.
 
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Lazy so and so - lying in your bed till the afternoon :nerner:
That's a terrible slight on my character. I simply sent Mrs. Beard out to wipe away the ice with her diaphanous nightie, although she did say that her bedroom mules were a little lacking in grip.

The next time she wore wellies which, while being an improvement in the traction department, made for quite a clash of sartorial styles. Still, she's a game bird I'll give her that.

Even when she was working on the bins she still looked tres chic, although in her previous career as a steeplejack, wearing a mini-skirt was a trifle revealing, not to mention draughty.*




* If she sees this I'm dead!
 
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That's a terrible slight on my character. I simply sent Mrs. Beard out to wipe away the ice with her diaphanous nightie, although she did say that her bedroom mules were a little lacking in grip.

The next time she wore wellies which, while being an improvement in the traction department, made for quite a clash of sartorial styles. Still, she's a game bird I'll give her that.

Even when she was working on the bins she still looked tres chic, although in her previous career as a steeplejack, wearing a mini-skirt was a trifle revealing, not to mention draughty.*




* If she sees this I'm dead!

I'm gonna tell. I'm gonna tell. :nerner:
 
I'll bite too... FWD cars aren't setup by the factory to understeer. It's just the way they behave. (worse if the engine is heavier).
I think oversteer in a FWD only occurs when you are really low on thread (less then 2,5mm) in very wet conditions.
I do exactly what Smurfette does and it always worked for me. Even or especially when I did 80.000. Km a year.

gr J
I have to say that has a lot to do with it, although how you design the car helps, along with the type and size of engine helps; Alfa 147 GTA anybody? Mind you, most of the Golf GTIs since the Mk1 managed to do alright.

Our old 156 2.0 handles better, in my view, than the Giulietta MA, although it doesn't have the same levels of grip as the newer car. The 156 benefits from an older style of driving and likes constant lines through corners, racing lines of you will, where the Giulietta is more of a point and squirt style, despite both having forms of multi link rear suspension, which has an effect on grip levels.

About 2,000 miles ago I replaced the front pair of worn P7 Zero Neros for new P7 Cinturatos to match the fairly new ones on the rear and wet grip was improved quite noticeably, although even before changing them there was always a sense of not enough grip at the front, rather than too much at the back.
 
I had an Audi A4 Avant with 140bhp diesel. From a quick standing start, it would spin the front wheels no problem especially in the wet. Once both let go it would sit there making me look like an idiot. It was clear why the more powerful versions came with 4WD.

Wet or dry the handling was very neutral though you could feel the front end pushing when try a bit too hard. Tyres were changed at 22,000. All four were shot. Fronts were worn right across. Rears had taken out the shoulders inside and outside. Swapping the tyres end to end would have simply had the rear shoulders going to the canvas before the fronts were fully worn out.

The very best handling FWD car was a mid 1980s Citroen BX 1.9 GTI. I have not driven better since then*** (though the Audi came close). It's only fault was when it hit a big hump (like a bridge) the hydraulics would reduce suspension pressure so it can down hard on the bump stops. It was a feature of the self levelling suspension system.

*** I have not driven any hyper cars or souped up MerVAGMWs etc etc.
 
That's a terrible slight on my character. I simply sent Mrs. Beard out to wipe away the ice with her diaphanous nightie, although she did say that her bedroom mules were a little lacking in grip.

The next time she wore wellies which, while being an improvement in the traction department, made for quite a clash of sartorial styles. Still, she's a game bird I'll give her that.

Even when she was working on the bins she still looked tres chic, although in her previous career as a steeplejack, wearing a mini-skirt was a trifle revealing, not to mention draughty.*




* If she sees this I'm dead!

At first I thought the threadtitle was (a serious case of) Too Much Information...
Man was I mistaken:D

gr J
 
I had an Audi A4 Avant with 140bhp diesel. From a quick standing start, it would spin the front wheels no problem especially in the wet. Once both let go it would sit there making me look like an idiot. It was clear why the more powerful versions came with 4WD.

Wet or dry the handling was very neutral though you could feel the front end pushing when try a bit too hard. Tyres were changed at 22,000. All four were shot. Fronts were worn right across. Rears had taken out the shoulders inside and outside. Swapping the tyres end to end would have simply had the rear shoulders going to the canvas before the fronts were fully worn out.

The very best handling FWD car was a mid 1980s Citroen BX 1.9 GTI. I have not driven better since then*** (though the Audi came close). It's only fault was when it hit a big hump (like a bridge) the hydraulics would reduce suspension pressure so it can down hard on the bump stops. It was a feature of the self levelling suspension system.

*** I have not driven any hyper cars or souped up MerVAGMWs etc etc.
There was mention of the basics of FWD car design in another reply, and your comment that the A4 used to spin its wheels when making a quick standing start backs this up. Under those circumstances the weight transference involved in a quick get away would take the weight, and the traction, away from the front as it moved to the rear. Under the same circumstances in a RWD car it would increase traction. Obviously in icy conditions a RWD car would quite possibly just spin.

I had a Rover 114SLi in the mid-'90s and I have to say that its steering was superb, being unassisted, and that its turn-in was absolutely spot on. You really could steer it with the throttle, unlike its predecessor which was dull and unresponsive with its asthmatic A+ engine. It was replaced by a series of 4th Gen Fiestas with the excellent 1.25 Zetec engines. Their turn-in wasn't quite so precise but the grip levels were higher; both were thoroughly enjoyable cars to drive, and although their performance wasn't enough to trouble "the big boys" their handling and roadholding meant that on roads suchas the Cat and Fiddle, Snake Pass and Blubberhouses they couldn't lose me either. The Rover had 155 tyres and the first of the Fiestas had 165s, later moving up to 175s. Then they started to spoil it a bit by putting even bigger 185s on them which led to duller turn-in, little or no appreciable increase in grip levels, more road noise and a tendency to tramline.

After the Fiestas came a series of Focus models, mainly 1.6 Zetecs but with a 1.8 LS thrown in for good measure.

I have to say that the Fords were, without a shadow of a doubt, the finest handling FWD cars I've driven, although I did have an early A4 for a short period which I felt was very well made but, as with other German cars of the period, sparsely equipped. I didn't have it long enough to really look at its handling.
 
Ach are you coming over for a wee visit? That's nice!
Can I park on your drive then? If we park the Pandas side by side I can open the back doors on each and sleep lying across the two cars.

Try not to wake me up when you go to work though.
 
I have to say that the Fords were, without a shadow of a doubt, the finest handling FWD cars I've driven, although I did have an early A4 for a short period which I felt was very well made but, as with other German cars of the period, sparsely equipped. I didn't have it long enough to really look at its handling.

My A4 was the first that was not pretty much based on the (new) Passat shell. Understated, smart unlike today's that are all "Look at me" boy racer mobiles.

The Bridgestone Potenza tyres were expensive so I only really worked the tyres when they were near end of life. Top Gear always said the BMW 3 Series gripped better but on the roads you had to be an idiot to unstick the Audi. I never used a 4wd version but expect it was more costly on tyres as the rears would lose the shoulders even faster AND they with 4WD they should to be changed as a set.

I ordered a new set of Potenzas but the idiot tyre dealer got Goodyear F1s. Needing new tyres for MOT I had no option and they were truly horrible. They spoiled the car - noisy and twitchy compared to the Japanese brand.

The Panda needs a the wheel tracking checking and a new set of rubber, but I wont be going beyond the standard steel wheel fitting. They do the job just fine.
 
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