Ok, I borrowed the OH's Panda to go to work today while she's away on holiday.

After weeks of hot weather it's been throwing it down for the last week.

Car smelled damp/musty when I got in, there is a dehumidifier in the car, but she hasn't emptied it for weeks.


Anyway, ran it up the motorway for 20 minutes with the heater on hot to try and dry things out a little.

Pulled up a the peage on exiting the motorway, upon coming to a stop (steering straight) I get a grinding sound from the steering column and the wheel kicks back and fourth a little. This happens every time I touch the wheel. After about 3 repetitions, red steering light comes on and the system shuts off. Switched off and restarted engine, same behaviour.

Feels like the gear on the motor isn't meshing correctly with the column, motor worked loose?

I can attempt to pull it apart here at work, but if it's going to take more than a few minutes I'd rather do it under cover at home (still chucking it down). Is there a fuse I can pull to disable the PAS and avoid it stripping it's gears?


In the worst case, does anybody know if the LHD and RHD columns are the same? In other words, can I get a replacement from Western Power Steering? I actually emailed them with this question a few weeks ago, but never had a reply.


GF is going to murder me for 'breaking' her car, funnily it only ever has a problem when I drive it :bang:


Searching suggests possibly damp/condensation in the PAS relays, but to me it felt like a mechanical issue.

Possibly battery, it's been sitting for a couple of days and she only does short trips, but the fact that this happened after a good thrash up the motorway suggests otherwise, though I did have lights, blower on 2 and wipers on.

There are people far more experienced and with greater knowledge than me that will be along shortly to help you.

In the meantime....

Change the battery, the panda steering system is highly sensitive to a under performing battery. Even if it seems healthy enough to run everything else it will cause the steering to have odd effects. If you can change/swap/borrow an alternative good/new battery it will be the cheapest and simplest option to check first.

It's highly unlikely to be a mechanical issue as this wouldn't give the symptoms you describe.

I'll charge/change the battery once I'm home, though I don't think I have a spare that is small enough.

In the mean time, a quick look at the handbook shows fuses F05 (60A) and F24 (10A) both relating to the EPAS, any idea which one I should pull in order to disable the system for the drive home?


Edit: logic suggests that the 10A fuse will be for the control system and the 60A will be the motor, so pulling the 10A should be enough?

Steve145 said:

I'll charge/change the battery once I'm home, though I don't think I have a spare that is small enough.

In the mean time, a quick look at the handbook shows fuses F05 (60A) and F24 (10A) both relating to the EPAS, any idea which one I should pull in order to disable the system for the drive home?


Edit: logic suggests that the 10A fuse will be for the control system and the 60A will be the motor, so pulling the 10A should be enough?

Click to expand...

Personally I'd pull both - the last thing you want is for the motor to cut in when you're not expecting it.

Yeah, guess I'll find out pretty quickly if anything else essential is on the same circuit.

Edit 2: Pheeweeeee, it's absoloutly honking in there, think I'll be putting the big dehumidifier in it over the weekend, dunno how she can stand it.

Well, 'fusty' the Panda made it home ok. In the end I only pulled the 60A fuse as it was throwing it down and the tweezers appear to have gone walkies.

I can confirm that pulling 60A F05 disables the ePAS.

With the steering column shroud removed and the fuse replaced, I was better able to investigate the noises (compared to 5am in the pouring rain). The noise is in fact the motor rapidly switching between 'forward' and 'reverse', jerking the wheel as it does so. So I'm now going with battery, on charge as I write this.

While driving with no power steering, I noticed that the steering felt very 'notchy' and jerky, not at all smooth. I'd always noticed this a little, but put it down to the ePAS, never having had a car with this before. It was much more noticable without the assistance though.

Any ideas, track rod ends? Steering column universal joints? Or just the resistance of the disabled motor?


Right now though, I'm going to have a cup of tea.

Sounds like the classic torque sensor error

They don't feel great without the power steering

koalar said:

Sounds like the classic torque sensor error

Click to expand...

Most likely problem, although I drove an unloved 500 the other day with really graunchy (is that a real word?) steering and it turned out to be the strut top bearings. Both were rusty and full of sticky crud. Owner was taken in by duff battery causing the EPS light to come on, and had booked it in for a recon EPS unit.
It really did feel like knackered torque sensors when I drove it but easy to diagnose properly with the bonnet up. Sounded like a dozen cats sliding down a blackboard when going to full lock.

Steve145 said:

While driving with no power steering, I noticed that the steering felt very 'notchy' and jerky, not at all smooth.

Any ideas, track rod ends? Steering column universal joints? Or just the resistance of the disabled motor?

Click to expand...

This is normal behaviour; not an indication of a fault. You'll feel exactly the same thing if you coast downhill in neutral with the ignition off. I'd guess there are some powerful magnets in the EPAS motor.

Not something to do very often, but a useful exercise for the experienced driver if you can find somewhere suitably quiet. Providing you don't remove the key (which will activate the steering lock), you can stop and steer quite safely, but the steering weight and pedal pressure are both more than you might expect. Knowing how the car will feel without power to the steering or brakes might just one day save your life in an emergency situation.

Well, after having a rest, yesterday evening I took it down to my local 'Norauto' (a bit like Halfords) prepared to buy a new battery. At the mere sight of the battery tester, it started behaving and has done so ever since. The battery, incedentaly, checked out ok, it's only 18 months old.

Strut top mounts were changed a few weeks ago.

When driving yesterday, it did feel as if I were fighting the motor, the wheel resisted then turned freely in clear 'notches' just as an electric motor does.

When it next plays up, I'll get a video, it wasn't like the one above, which appears to be pulling to one side? This would kick back and forth violently through a couple of degrees of rotation, then the whole system would shut off.

Can anyone tell me if, in a uk (RHD) car, the motor is on the left of the column?

Steve145 said:

Can anyone tell me if, in a uk (RHD) car, the motor is on the left of the column?

Click to expand...

On my RHD Panda 169 the motor is on the right of the column as viewed from the driver's seat, just behind the access panel for the OBD2 port.

Thanks, I feared it would be.

So the parts are mirrored LHD/RHD.

I'll try emailing Western Power Steering and BBA Reman again. There must be a French or Italian (or Polish) rebuilder, but I haven't found them yet.

Still, it's working for the moment...

jrkitching said:

This is normal behaviour; not an indication of a fault. You'll feel exactly the same thing if you coast downhill in neutral with the ignition off. I'd guess there are some powerful magnets in the EPAS motor.

Not something to do very often, but a useful exercise for the experienced driver..... Knowing how the car will feel without power to the steering or brakes might just one day save your life in an emergency situation.

Click to expand...

NEVER DO THIS!
Apart from the obvious danger of locking the steering while fiddling with the key - don't forget that this is something you've never done before, so in a moving car it only needs a slight bump or jolt to turn the key too far - it gives much heavier steering and braking.

If the unexpected happens while you're carrying out this potentially dangerous experiment - such as an animal darting out from the roadside (or worse) - you would certainly be open to prosecution if an accident occurred, and your insurers might have something to say!

Simply not worth the risk, just to find out how it feels!

Sweetsixteen said:

NEVER DO THIS!
Apart from the obvious danger of locking the steering while fiddling with the key - don't forget that this is something you've never done before, so in a moving car it only needs a slight bump or jolt to turn the key too far - it gives much heavier steering and braking.

If the unexpected happens while you're carrying out this potentially dangerous experiment - such as an animal darting out from the roadside (or worse) - you would certainly be open to prosecution if an accident occurred, and your insurers might have something to say!

Simply not worth the risk, just to find out how it feels!

Click to expand...

No car I've ever driven would lock the steering unless you completely removed the key, try it (when stationary) and see.

As for seeing how the car 'drives' with no power assistance, I'd agree that it's worth knowing, pick somewhere safe though.

I've towed, bump started, and generally rolled enough cars around to be fairly used to it, but there are still surprises, like my Citroen Evasion (Ulysee) cutting out mid-corner at speed.

Had a Renault Megane diesel, starter broke while GF was working at a ski resort, the car then sat for a week in -15 and gale-force winds, so it was pretty frozen when I came to recover it.

Managed to bump start it in the end, fortunately it had been parked at the top of the ski station. Took about 100m of vertical or about 500m of road to get it to go.
It was down hill for many kilometres, but I really wanted to get the engine running before I reached the hairpin bends!


One thing to keep in mind if you're rolling with the engine off, particularly if the engine has just failed, is that the brake servo will hold enough vacuum for a couple of applications of the brakes. You get three, maybe four chances to stop the car, after that, the brakes do still work, but with a lot less power, ok at low speeds but not so good if you were moving fast.

This thread is concerning.

If engine looses power while driving , power assistance can be kept working by simply leaving the car in gear and not pressing the clutch pedal. The rotation of the wheels will keep the engine rotating through the gear train.

Clearly the above does not apply to automatic gear boxes

I wouldn't want to be responsible for someone having an accident because they have an unusual car with a steering lock that engages without removing the key. Or a worn lock that does the same.
I think I have come across a steering lock like this in the past.

Sweetsixteen said:

If the unexpected happens while you're carrying out this potentially dangerous experiment - such as an animal darting out from the roadside (or worse) - you would certainly be open to prosecution if an accident occurred, and your insurers might have something to say!

Click to expand...

You're absolutely right in saying they'd throw the book at you if you had an accident whilst attempting this.

There is a trade off between training for emergencies, and causing an emergency through training. I'm a qualified pilot, so perhaps have more experience of training for the unexpected than some - and I'm well aware that a lot of aircraft have been lost in training accidents.

There are two schools of thought; roughly summed up by the two positions "What you don't know can't hurt you" and "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing". Personally I like to be as prepared as I can be for the unexpected; if you do find yourself in the (admittedly most unlikely) situation of having an EPAS runaway in the fast lane, then turning off all power and coasting in neutral may be your best chance of making the hard shoulder under control, but you're unlikely to be able to do this in extremis if you've never driven the car unpowered.

Perhaps the best advice is to only practice on private land where there are no vehicles or other obstacles to hit.

Steve's right in saying the key is most unlikely to fall out of the steering lock of its own accord; it's specifically designed not to do this - but I do know of someone who had a runaway throttle and panicked, pulled out the key and promptly crashed into a brick wall when the steering locked solid. And the possibility of a worn steering lock causing unexpected problems shouldn't be ignored.

Steve145 said:

One thing to keep in mind if you're rolling with the engine off, particularly if the engine has just failed, is that the brake servo will hold enough vacuum for a couple of applications of the brakes. You get three, maybe four chances to stop the car, after that, the brakes do still work, but with a lot less power, ok at low speeds but not so good if you were moving fast.

Click to expand...

Once servo assistance is lost, you can still stop quickly (if you have strong legs) but the pedal will be firm and the required pressure will be very high. Someone who's never experienced this could easily be fooled into thinking their brakes had locked solid and failed completely.

jrkitching said:

You're absolutely right in saying they'd throw the book at you if you had an accident whilst attempting this.

Perhaps the best advice is to only practice on private land where there are no vehicles or other obstacles to hit.

Click to expand...

This is probably the only time when such an action might be carried out with safety.

On a public forum where readers skills or lack of them are completely unknown, caution should always be exercised when making suggestions that might seem safe to those with superior driving skills, but might result in panic or loss of control if tried by a novice driver.

Sweetsixteen said:

On a public forum where readers skills or lack of them are completely unknown, caution should always be exercised when making suggestions that might seem safe to those with superior driving skills, but might result in panic or loss of control if tried by a novice driver.

Click to expand...

Couldn't agree more.

Advanced skills are best learned in a controlled, safe environment from an experienced instructor.

Getting back on topic, today I noticed a very slight 'chattering' from the steering motor, when cornering with low engine revs and when stationary.

Maybe it's more audible as I have the cowling removed from the steering column, there's a fair bit of soundproofing in there.

Couldn't hear it when revs were higher, but I might not have been able to hear it over engine.

Interestingly, since it's started working, the steering actually feels better than it used to, there was always a slight 'notchiness' to it and it often felt like it was assisting a little more than it should, so you'd have to correct it a little.

Now it feels 'normal'.

I'll start looking for a column/torque sensor.

I suppose I could pull a non-assisted column and rack from a 1.1 Team, but I think I'd have to change the top mounts and springs too? I only replaced them a couple of weeks ago.