Hi All

I haven't long been the owner of my 2004 Fiat Panda 1.2 Dynamic Dualogic, and I have a query concerning cold starting that I'm hoping you lot might be able to share your knowledge with me. I haven't owned a petrol car for a long time now, and never owned a Fiat, so I'm trying to find out as much as I can about what it's like to own a Panda.

My query is concerning cold starting the Panda, I'd specifically like to know if its normal for the car to rev to around 1200rpm on cold starting and whether the should be a distinct smell of petrol upon starting? Engine revs drop to around 800rpm not long after starting and the petrol smell goes away, so I'm assuming the Panda has to run a bit rich on starting, but I would be grateful if someone could clarify this for me? From what I remember the petrol cars that I have owned in the past rev a bit higher than normal idle on starting, and can run a bit rich during this period too. My Panda has only done 48000 miles, and does have a sellers warranty, so if it does turn out to be something wrong then I'll know to get in contact with the dealer to get it sorted.

You wisdom regarding this would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks in advance

bigshorty said:

Hi All

I haven't long been the owner of my 2004 Fiat Panda 1.2 Dynamic Dualogic, and I have a query concerning cold starting that I'm hoping you lot might be able to share your knowledge with me. I haven't owned a petrol car for a long time now, and never owned a Fiat, so I'm trying to find out as much as I can about what it's like to own a Panda.

My query is concerning cold starting the Panda, I'd specifically like to know if its normal for the car to rev to around 1200rpm on cold starting and whether the should be a distinct smell of petrol upon starting? Engine revs drop to around 800rpm not long after starting and the petrol smell goes away, so I'm assuming the Panda has to run a bit rich on starting, but I would be grateful if someone could clarify this for me? From what I remember the petrol cars that I have owned in the past rev a bit higher than normal idle on starting, and can run a bit rich during this period too. My Panda has only done 48000 miles, and does have a sellers warranty, so if it does turn out to be something wrong then I'll know to get in contact with the dealer to get it sorted.

You wisdom regarding this would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks in advance

Click to expand...

Hi,

the rev's are in the "normal range",


petrol smell..? I would've said it's a concern,
but it clears once "choke" has eased off.

so ;

1, you're sensitive to the smell ( not a bad thing)

2, or for some reason - it's really overfuelling / not burning correctly
ideally that wants investigating.

TBH on a low mileage car , it's possible it is time for Airfilter, and spark plugs.

the airfilter is a 3 minutes - no tools job.. so worth looking at Now

Charlie - Oxford

Wow, thats a seriously quick response, thanks Charlie.

I am definitely going to get it serviced very soon, but I'll pick up an air filter today. My Panda was a mobility car, and does have a lot of service history, but can't see anything to do with spark plugs ever being changed, so will get this done as soon as.

Got to say that apart from some knocking that happens when I drive for first couple of miles, which I'm hoping now seems to have rectified itself (another thread posted for this), the engine runs really smooth and quiet, I'm quite chuffed with it. A few niggles are always going to be there when owning a new car, especially when it seems too good a bargain to pass up, I guess its a case of new car hypochondria!

Thanks again for your reply.

Bearing in mind the history, the engine may well be bunged up and tight. Drive it hard for a few weeks and it will improve considerably. Use high octane petrol cost per mile is the same as cheap petrol but the car runs better. With an ordinary Panda you need all the help you can get.

Why (and I really mean WHY!) would anyone need high octane fuel in a low compression engine like the 1.2 fire engine? Even 91 (still sold in Germany) will never selfcombust in an engine like the 1.2.

gr J

10.8:1 is not a low compression ratio.

The engine will run on 91 octane but power will be well down due to retarded spark timing. All that wasted energy goes down the exhaust pipe. If the engine could not use posh petrol it would not have a knock sensor and would not cope with hills so much better with the better stuff.

Last week, my wife filled ours with 95 RON. I took her to the airport on Tuesday its quite a hilly route and it drove like a slug. I was driving foot on the floor and getting in people's way, yet it copes fine when running high octane (I often drive that route). There is no cost saving so what is the point of the cheap stuff?

In the days of leaded petrol, 4 Star was 98 octane. When unleaded was introduced, the government allowed 95 octane to become the default. This damaged older engines due to pre-ignition or ruined their performance when the spark timing was retarded. The upshot is that 95 RON is less efficient so gets less miles per gallon so more sales for Esso et al and more tax for HMG.

At the time there was much fuss about lead in petrol protecting valve seats. Lead was not protective, but 95 RON produced hotter exhaust gas (due to late spark timing) which damaged soft valve seats. 98 octane unleaded would have worked fine.

Interesting answers.

My 1.2
05

Doesn't smell of petrol or rev high on first start up.

Starts first time to normal idle? 800-900


Take it the smell of petrol is in the cabin and not from the rear of the car.

My 05 1.2 occasionally gives off a slight smell of unburnt fuel when starting from cold. Only really notice it when reversing coz I was too lazy to park it facing out.
Idle speed probably 1100-ish rpm for first few seconds, although I normally drive off straight away and it's back to normal by the first road junction.

My 100HP always idles at 11-1200 for a short while after starting, then settles to about 800. I had assumed it was normal. No petrol smell though.

Have you checked the engine breather pipe is properly connected? This caused petrol smells for me when I forgot to connect mine.

klu01dbt said:

Have you checked the engine breather pipe is properly connected? This caused petrol smells for me when I forgot to connect mine.

Click to expand...

Yes, there is a small breather pipe around 10-12mm thick connecting the underside of the airbox to the left side of the throttle body.

It's to allow vapour from the throttle body to recirculate back into the engine, they are prone to splitting or cracking, and as as already mentioned, they don't always get pushed back on if the airbox has been off for a plug change etc.

Remember with a Dualogic the electric pump primes the gearbox when you open the door and you then start the car. This takes a toll on the battery and hence it revs to 1200 as the ecu senses low battery voltage. Ours does it now and again. It seems to be during cold weather when batteries are the most vulnerable. Also remember a panda is a complicated car for its size with can bus system and 5 plus ecus controlling things which all use electricity.

Thought I'd give you all a quick update concerning this thread.

In the last week I have changed the air filter, spark plugs and leads and I haven't noticed the petrol smell on cold start up. I thought I smelt it this morning, but it was so faint that I couldn't be 100% sure, but definitely improved since before changing the parts. The car still revs at around 1200rpm on cold start up, but doesn't seem to stay like that for long until it reaches normal idle speed. I've checked the battery and alternator charge / operation and all seems fine there, I don't know how much current the hydraulic actuator pump would draw on start up, and whether this would have a impact on the start up, but early indications show the spark plug, leads and air filter service has definitely helped. I did have the thought that the recent warmer weather might be playing a part in the improvements, but not sure whether this would have any impact.

On a plus note, the spark plug ground electrodes had a nice light tan colouring to them, so it looks like the engine is in good health.

I'll keep monitoring just to be sure, but otherwise its looking good. Thanks to all for your input into this, much appreciated.

Just a thought but clean the MAF sensor as the gearbox also takes the engines load as well as road speed. On manual Pandas it also gives better MPG and better starting as well. There is guides on the forum its very easy to do.

bob1969 said:

Just a thought but clean the MAF sensor as the gearbox also takes the engines load as well as road speed. On manual Pandas it also gives better MPG and better starting as well. There is guides on the forum its very easy to do.

Click to expand...

I'll do that Bob, thanks for the tip! Cleaned many a MAF in my time so should be pretty straight forward!

bob1969 said:

Just a thought but clean the MAF sensor as the gearbox also takes the engines load as well as road speed. On manual Pandas it also gives better MPG and better starting as well. There is guides on the forum its very easy to do.

Click to expand...

Not sure if this is right but after a bit of research on this site I've read this thread:

https://www.fiatforum.com/panda/448900-where-maf-sensor-located-vechicle.html

The chap who posted the thread is referring to his 2005 Fiat Panda 1.2 (same as mine except I'm 2004), and apparently the petrol Panda models don't have a MAF sensor, only the 1.3 diesels. Is this correct? From my knowledge MAF sensors are usually located somewhere along the first part of the air intake system, and from memory I can't remember seeing a sensor along the air intake route. I could be wrong, if so I'd be grateful if you could tell me where it is.

My Panda does have a MAP sensor, is this the same sort of sensor you were referring to, and needing cleaning??

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Yes my apologies yes manifold absolute pressure sensor or MAP sensor on a petrol 1.2 . It should read roughly the same air pressure as outside on a cold engine start. Check weather forecast for millibars.

Cheers for confirming that, however I'm presuming I'd need MES to check the reading of the MAP sensor?

Yes im afraid

Just joined the forum
ditto
from Dorset
ditto
1.2 Panda
Ditto
48k on car
Ditto
revs at about 1200rpm on start up then drops to around 800rpm shortly after
ditto
Smell of petrol on start up
nope!


Think i'll follow suit and change filter, plugs and leads though