Hello,

I'm pretty new around here, so hello to all of you.

Now, about the subject: Fiat Panda engine, 1242 8v, 44kW, production 2007, engine code 169A4.000. The car have now about 70.000 miles on it (115.000 km)
I'm not quite a mechanic, but I like to fix something here and there; I own the car from brand new, so let's say I'm somehow attached to it.

Problem: I think the picture talk by itself.
The valve cover gasket was improperly mounted from brand new. The leak was so small, that I wouldn't notice from a oil change to another. But, good enough for the oil to accumulate in the engine coolant sensor coupling, which caused erratic problems (which hopefully now are gone, after I've cleaned the leak).

My problem: I can't remove the valve cover. It is "the new" model, not the one with 4 screws. This one have 8 screws, plus 3 on the timing belt upper-cover, and another 3 on the coils holder. With these screw removed, I can't move the cover.

Now, either the cover is stuck, or I am missing something.
A mechanic suggested that he must do the timing belt too, in order to remove the cover. Is he right? It is really needed to open everything there? or just insist on cover removing, as "it should pop" ?

Suggestions, please ...
Thank you.

Attached I've uploaded a picture of a motor I did this to, I'm unsure if it was strictly necerssary to take of the timing-belt, but I hope the image might help you... (dont mind the olive-oil)

Thanks; I think the second picture belongs to the previous generation of this engine, as they made some changes on the cover, this is why I was asking.
But cc1 confirmed this; I saw he worked on a similar engine "version" (same cover).
The cover should go off without removing the cam belt (the cam belt was already replaced not so long ago, the leak got worse in the last year).
So, I will insist on cover removal and cleaning.

Thanks.

stk said:

Thanks; I think the second picture belongs to the previous generation of this engine, as they made some changes on the cover, this is why I was asking.
But cc1 confirmed this; I saw he worked on a similar engine "version" (same cover).
The cover should go off without removing the cam belt (the cam belt was already replaced not so long ago, the leak got worse in the last year).
So, I will insist on cover removal and cleaning.

Thanks.

Click to expand...

Hi,
have a look in the 500 section , as they are ALL the modern type

maybe the GUIDES 1st - cam belt
or even look for the info from a ford Ka - same engine

Charlie

Thanks; I'll have a look.

Meantime, I've concluded that the coolant sensor is end of life; it has been soaked in oil for years ... The leak was slow, but persistent.

Maybe it would help others:

Coolant sensor have a common wire (voltage reference) with MAP and throttle sensors; oil in coolant sensor coupling -> periodic P0120, sometime P0107, and maybe connected with infamous P0352 "coil B" error (is the same voltage reference used internally for coil feedback, maybe?)

Running the car with an OBD scanner in hand (ok, I was the passenger): throttle position sensor signal lost / recovered / lost / recovered and so on. The car would do "engine breaking" by itself, in a very harsh way.

The symptoms started when the car was two - two and a half years old, but just got worse this winter.

Needless to say, I've changed the whole throttle body (just for the sensor, which didn't help); changed a MAP sensor; changed the coils; ECU changed under warranty (warranty expired soon after, and the problems come back). Almost everything seemed to help, for a short time (months), but maybe just because the wires were moved and the thin oil contact "broken". Also, I've checked the wiring and even redone a suspect part, with no help.

What it helped, finally: found the common wire and oily sensor; cleaned the sensor -> now the engine run smooth, nice, clean. But, the temperature gauge stay pretty low, I don't remember do go up to 50% this winter, something that I didn't suspect initially, until after I've pondered on the electric schema for hours.

The panda seems to be on the right track, but I still have lots of work on it. Also, I'm learning lots about cars and mechanics, something I was not so interested before ...

You probably know how sensitive modern engines are to low coolant levels. That coolant sensor needs to be replaced as soon as possible. This alone is a good reason to fix the oil leak.

Does anyone have a recommendation for the proper torque of the coolant sensors screws? It is plastic + thin gasket ... I may be over cautious, but I'd like to be correct. Is 8 Nm something safe?

The new sensor arrived today; it included the gasket, lucky me, otherwise the gasket come in set for the full manifold (other money ...)

I've double checked the coolant level; topped with 100ml, but was still in the limit. It will be fully replaced these days.

stk said:

But, the temperature gauge stay pretty low, I don't remember do go up to 50% this winter

Click to expand...

Start the engine from cold. Put your hand on the hose right hand side that goes to the radiator. If the thermostat has shut properly it should stay stone cold for a few minutes.


Seems quite common for the rubber seal in the thermostat perish and go AWOL

I will check that too, thanks.

Thanks for all your advice.
I've checked, the thermostat kicks off/on correctly.

I managed to remove the stuck cover, gently, using an improvised lever as in picture. It came up nice; it was really stuck, first 1-2 mm pretty hard to move.
Replaced the gasket; torqued the screws to 8Nm - is it the correct torque?
I opted not to put the corner silicon points; the plan is to watch it, and replace it again after a while.

I also replaced the coolant sensor; this one was tricky to remove too; quite a narrow space.

The colour inside the cam housing looks a darker gold than I'd expect. Is this the photo, or has it missed a few oil changes?

I'm not sure how to answer the question, as I don't know how it should look like.
The light came only from flash, hence a possible higher contrast.
The oil changes were regular, even more frequent in the last time.
The engine had a pretty harsh life. Periodic problems with misfires (or at least what it looked like). P0352, more exactly. Associated or not with P0120. And I'm not done with it yet. A few days of good behavior, then P0352 ame back. It is not the coils, the leads, the spark plugs. It is not the throttle sensor. And I'm mostly sure it is not the ECU neither, but I can't bet on it. It have long periods of good work (up to a year), then P0352 strikes again. I've checked the wiring, but now I will be back and re-check it. Also, I started to suspect a vacuum leak.
All I can blame is the oil leak; I suspect it either affected a wire I haven't checked yet, or some other gasket, tube, whatever.
Note: it works better since I replaced the cover gasket + temperature sensor, but far from perfect. Maybe I stretched some wires, as it was required in order to access the sensor.

I have some freeze frames recorded now, I will post the summary here, maybe others have some ideas.

So, how would you interpret the bellow frames?
The error is P0352.
Road travel 35 + 35 miles, stop in the middle (and in the end, maybe the last line can be omitted).

I'm pondering on the 78kpa peak ...
Edit: the MAP values are extreme ... On road, the OBD scanner show a regular 15-20 inHg as it should.
It runs nice, then it hit an error. Then it run nice again.

Also, I'm not sure what to say about the engine coolant ... it is winter, but not quite freezing outside.
The thermostat is working, and I can get the temperature right if the car is stopping on idle.

ST FT = short term fuel trim
LT FT = long term fuel trim
MAP = intake manifold pressure
Units converted for convenience.

Regarding the misfire have you checked the crank position sensor?

I had an ongoing problem with a bike fitted with stick coils. It ran badly and used silly amounts of fuel. I swapped the coils around no difference unplugged what might be guessed as the bad coil engine stopped - as it should.

The engine ran very rich and sooted up its O2 sensors. All seemed fine with a new sensor then it went bad again.

Eventually a coil failed totally and I was running on one cylinder. New coil fitted and the other side failed on the way home. The problem all along was both coils failing but not actually non functioning. Unburnt fuel was leaving unused oxygen so the ECU into added more fuel - hence the sooted O2 sensors.

So unless you have tried brand new coils some careful testing might be needed to rule out the coils.

Air leaks generally cause a fast tickover. With a drive by wire throttle that might raise a fault code.

Thanks.

The throttle is the good old fashioned cable style, not by wire; the same car came in both variants in the same year.

Following the electric diagram, the following sensors share a common wire:
- throttle position sensor
- timing sensor (I think it means the same thing as the crank position sensor ?)
- engine coolant sensor
- integrated air temperature sensor + MAP sensor
Also another common wire between timing sensor and MAP sensor.
On of the wires should be the voltage reference, the other earth. I'm not sure yet which, but from eLearn:

The timing belt was changed, but the car had the same problem before, so I won't blame the timing. Yet.
And, the problem appear and disappear when it want, until this winter. When it decided to make me learn something about cars.
Coils, leads, spark plugs where changed, several times. This winter I changed the throttle too (with sensor).

At first I've found the engine coolant sensor full of oil, including wires; that's why I replaced it; seems improved, but far from perfect.

Also, the coolant temperature from logs are too strange ... That's why I suspect a reference voltage issue.

Now that I've sorted it out, I'll find a way to monitor that voltage; it is easier for me then checking for air leaks, for the moment.

Air leaks can be easy to find.

(1) Look for the obvious - loose clips, etc (no doubt done).
(2) At tickover spray EasiStart around intake system joints and areas where air leaks can occur. If the engine note changes you've found a leak. A WD40 straw can make this a quite accurate test.

Another thought - Has the engine ever overheated. Some have a plastic inlet manifold which is fine at normal running temperatures but can distort when really overheated leading to gasket face air leaks.

Getting closer ...

I've found a hot spot where pressed, it goes mad ...
It is the ECU connector ... Removed its plastic cover, played with the wires -> brrrr clear 2 cyl running. And I was pretty sure I've checked that part (I did, but failed to found a problem).

So, now it seems to get closer. I only have to found the guilty wire(s) and a solution for them (broken cable or broken connector).

The connectors are usually fine but corrosion inside will cause problems. After that, rubbed through insulation is more common than a broken conductor.