Hi,

aircon was playing up, looked under the bonnet and there was no water in the expansion tank.

My concern is whether this a long running problem, and whether it could have issues on the headgasket.

The car is currently with the garage, hopefully they can look into it further. How often do you top up your water?

What a ball ache.

HannsG said:

Hi,

aircon was playing up, looked under the bonnet and there was no water in the expansion tank.

My concern is whether this a long running problem, and whether it could have issues on the headgasket.

The car is currently with the garage, hopefully they can look into it further. How often do you top up your water?

What a ball ache.

Click to expand...

It's the only real weakness of the FIRE engine - the cooling system is prone to leaks & running even slightly low on water is very likely to cause head gasket failure. This often happens before the temperature gauge indicates that you might have a problem. Checking the coolant level at least weekly is important on these cars.

Any failure of the heater to deliver hot air on demand should be treated as an immediate command to stop and verify the coolant level. This would justify a hard shoulder stop on a motorway. Sometimes the heater fails for other reasons, but this must be checked before driving further.

The system should not need regular topping up; if it does, this indicates a problem which should be treated as urgent and rectified before bad things happen.

I've put some Bars Leaks into the radiator. It's an internal leak sealer with zero claims to fix a blown head gasket but it will plug a pinholed radiator. In a 10 years old car this has to be the biggest risk area.

I also hope to fit a stainless steel float switch to the coolant tank but not yet had chance to look into how/if it can be done. Mine has the tank on end of radiator so I use a length of wooden dowel as a dip stick. Awkward and easily forgotten. To be sure, my Mrs won't bother.

DaveMcT said:

Awkward and easily forgotten.

Click to expand...

Yes, this is a check which should be easy, but isn't.

DaveMcT said:

I also hope to fit a stainless steel float switch to the coolant tank but not yet had chance to look into how/if it can be done.

Click to expand...

A positive low coolant warning would save a lot of head gaskets.

Most challenging issue is that the cooling system is pressurised, so whatever you come up with needs to maintain the integrity of the pressurised system; not as easy as it appears at first glance.

Whatever you choose to do, DO NOT just put water in the coolant system, ever. Always use an appropriate coolant mix - whether that be blue or red - but never mix the 2 coolant types. If in doubt, flush the system with water before refilling with your chosen coolant type. As said above, it's a sealed and pressurised system so losing coolant shouldn't happen and there should be no need for regular top-ups.

HannsG said:

Hi,

aircon was playing up, looked under the bonnet and there was no water in the expansion tank.

My concern is whether this a long running problem, and whether it could have issues on the headgasket.

The car is currently with the garage, hopefully they can look into it further. How often do you top up your water?

What a ball ache.

Click to expand...

Are you getting the garage you bought it from to rectify this?

If not, you should be, as it sounds like they've sold you a duffer.

HannsG said:

Hi,

aircon was playing up, looked under the bonnet and there was no water in the expansion tank.

My concern . How often do you top up your water?
.

Click to expand...

Coolant. Never top.up

Just change it every couple of years.

A pressure test of the cooling system should soon sort this

How many miles/hours since it was last at the correct level.?

jrkitching said:

Yes, this is a check which should be easy, but isn't.

A positive low coolant warning would save a lot of head gaskets.

Most challenging issue is that the cooling system is pressurised, so whatever you come up with needs to maintain the integrity of the pressurised system; not as easy as it appears at first glance.

Click to expand...

Oh yes it sounds so simple. I've found some stainless steel float switches which are a sliding ball float on a stick. However, what's needed is something that can be adjusted to get the correct low level warning and of course be up to the task.

This looks possible as it can be mounted through the side of the expansion tank.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DC100V-St...423105?hash=item43f5e7e0c1:g:-XkAAOSwZJBX~tvb
The information is sketchy so its probably a case of buy one and see if it can be used.

This type is more elegant but the working height (length of stick) is critical.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-Tank-...293907?hash=item1ea2706593:g:~eAAAOSwYlJW4khS

DaveMcT said:

Mine has the tank on end of radiator so I use a length of wooden dowel as a dip stick. Awkward and easily forgotten.

Click to expand...

to save the awkwardness of leaving a piece of wood in the radiator,

I just use a light against the outer edge of the tank,
and once it's all lit-up like a lantern , I just look from the opposite side to very easily see the coolant level

DaveMcT said:

Oh yes it sounds so simple. I've found some stainless steel float switches which are a sliding ball float on a stick. However, what's needed is something that can be adjusted to get the correct low level warning and of course be up to the task.

This looks possible as it can be mounted through the side of the expansion tank.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DC100V-Stainless-Steel-Right-Angle-Float-Switch-Liquid-Switch-Water-Level-Sensor-/291888423105?hash=item43f5e7e0c1:g:-XkAAOSwZJBX~tvb
The information is sketchy so its probably a case of buy one and see if it can be used.

This type is more elegant but the working height (length of stick) is critical.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-Tank-Pool-Liquid-Water-High-Low-Level-Sensor-Stainless-Steel-Float-Switch-/131574293907?hash=item1ea2706593:g:~eAAAOSwYlJW4khS

Click to expand...

My concern would be that I don't see how either of these options will maintain the integrity of the pressurisation. The saving grace is that they're cheap, so not the end of the world if they can't be made to work.

When the coolant fall below the level of the tempriture sensor and drops below 80 degrees the engine warning light comes on with the fans.

Only time not having a level indicator would be a problem would be if you lost the coolant while parked up.

koalar said:

When the coolant fall below the level of the tempriture sensor and drops below 80 degrees the engine warning light comes on with the fans.

Click to expand...

EH..??

On the subject of coolant level sensors, I came across a kit car with a Cartek one fitted. It was neat because it fitted in a hose rather than the expansion tank, avoiding the need to drill holes.
Trouble is they seem to be pretty expensive.
Not sure if there is a cheaper version, or whether it would fit a Panda anyway, but could be worth a look if anyone's interested.

koalar said:

When the coolant fall below the level of the tempriture sensor and drops below 80 degrees the engine warning light comes on with the fans.

Only time not having a level indicator would be a problem would be if you lost the coolant while parked up.

Click to expand...

The problem is that by the time the coolant has fallen below the level of the temperature sensor, the head gasket may have failed; the warning comes too late to save the engine from damage.

Waiting until the warning light illuminates is likely to lead to a wrecked engine.

irc said:

On the subject of coolant level sensors, I came across a kit car with a Cartek one fitted. It was neat because it fitted in a hose rather than the expansion tank, avoiding the need to drill holes.
Trouble is they seem to be pretty expensive.

Click to expand...

One thing which may be worth considering is fitting a cylinder head temperature gauge. Although more commonly fitted to aircooled engines, if fitted in the right place, they could provide an early indication of a low coolant problem.

Pricing is reasonable - here is one example of a type designed for automotive applications.

varesecrazy said:

EH..??

Click to expand...

If the temperature goes up to 90 then falls below 80 it assumes something is wrong and throws up a P0115 error. Engine Coolant Temperature Sensor Circuit Malfunction

Sensor being at the top of the engine. Once not in liquid it will drop quickly.

When error occurs it also puts the fans on fast.

Should catch most. However not 100 percent as coolant loss over night will not register as a fault.


Most problems are due to ignoring the engine check light bubbling sounds and heaters not working.


The last two car I have seen with symptoms of a blown head gasket turned out to be a cracked head and a porous head both due to not fixing the problem of loosing coolant but constantly filling with plain water and carry on using the car.(Micra/Corsa)

koalar said:

If the temperature goes up to 90 then falls below 80 it assumes something is wrong and throws up a P0115 error. Engine Coolant Temperature Sensor Circuit Malfunction

Sensor being at the top of the engine. Once not in liquid it will drop quickly.

When error occurs it also puts the fans on

Click to expand...

Thanks for the fuller explanation..
However NONE of those thing have happened in ANY of my FIRE engine HG failures.
The bravo had a low coolant light..but never had a fault code..or a cooling fan running.

What cars..engines ..have you experienced this on?

As this thread is presumably regarding a 1.4 in a 100 HP panda 169

varesecrazy said:

However NONE of those thing have happened in ANY of my FIRE engine HG failures.

Click to expand...

:yeahthat:

What koalar is suggesting may be OK on a corsa/micra but is both wrong and bad advice as far as the panda is concerned - with the Fiat engine, the first indication you get of a low coolant problem could well be a blown head gasket. There's a new thread on this subject practically every week; it's a far too common problem and at least some of the failures could have been avoided if owners had been better informed. It may be a relatively straightforward repair, but it's one most owners could well do without.

Regularly checking both the coolant level and the integrity of the cooling circuit is essential with this engine.

varesecrazy said:

Thanks for the fuller explanation..
However NONE of those thing have happened in ANY of my FIRE engine HG failures.
The bravo had a low coolant light..but never had a fault code..or a cooling fan running.

What cars..engines ..have you experienced this on?

As this thread is presumably regarding a 1.4 in a 100 HP panda 169

Click to expand...

Mines a 1.2 on a 05

Engine check light came on when no coolant was in the expansion tank. Luckily I was on a slip road so stopped quickly and topped up. Fixed leak when I got home. Bottom hose loose.


Still running fine several months later



Some cars are just more prone to head gasket failures


Overheating is not the only reason for the head gasket to go. Another common reasons is not changing the coolant as it becomes acidic coolant can begin to eat away or erode the gasket once a leak starts it will accelerate.

The FIRE is a low coolant content engine so it warms up quickly. The downside is virtually no tolerance to low coolant levels. The engine has no need to fully overheat - a local hotspot (due to low coolant or a large bubble) and the head will warp taking out the head gasket. By the time you hear the heater gurgling its too late.

In severe cases, the joint face will need to be machined flat so so the head should always be checked for warping.

Older cars have older radiators so are more likely to suffer leaks. Protect your self by keeping it serviced properly adding some in system leak sealer (I don't mean the snake oil thats supposed to fix head gaskets) and check the level regularly. Barrs Leaks or similar.

A good time to check the level is at night/dark with a good torch. Shine the light though the tank and you will easily see the fluid level.

jrkitching said:

:yeahthat:

What koalar is suggesting may be OK on a corsa/micra but is both wrong and bad advice as far as the panda is concerned - with the Fiat engine, the first indication you get of a low coolant problem could well be a blown head gasket. There's a new thread on this subject practically every week; it's a far too common problem and at least some of the failures could have been avoided if owners had been better informed. It may be a relatively straightforward repair, but it's one most owners could well do without.

Regularly checking both the coolant level and the integrity of the cooling circuit is essential with this engine.

Click to expand...

Interesting

I didn't suggest not checking the coolant level. Only that you should stop the car if the engine check light comes on?