My sister has a 2005 Panda 1.1. She's complaining that the car can be hard to start first thing on a cool morning. It takes plenty of cranking and making no effort to start, and then bursts into life and will restart without issue for the rest of the day. I'm going to scan it with MES over the weekend but something with this is saying its a relay problem rather than a sensor gone wonky.

Anyone got any advice on this and if there are any relays that could be at play?

Hi
Does she push the clutch down when starting? If not, get her to try it.
Otherwise, just guesses at this point, but first places I would look, assuming MES does not identify a specific problem, are:
Battery - may be just a little too weak to cope on cold starts. If possible, test with a (borrowed if possible) new battery, fitted the night before, as putting one on after turning it over with the old one will not prove much.
Earth leads/battery clamps - may be slightly corroded, and add just enough resistance to not quite be able to start. (Worth checking and cleaning anyway this near to winter)
Crank sensor - could have an intermittent fault, so fuel is not injected, therefore engine does not start. MES may not directly see a problem as the engine may not know it was trying to start.

On all of these, often once the engine has turned over a few times and some oil has circulated, the starter has an easier job, the engine turns just a little faster and the car starts, and then refuses to fail again until the next morning. Grrrrr.

Thanks for the reply. A couple of replies to the good points you have made.

The battery is only a few weeks old and the cranking speed is quite good. The earths were checked over prior to the replacement of the previous battery and all were good then. This does not appear to be a battery issue but will check everything to make sure this is so.

If the crank sensor was defective and causes the issue as described, would this generate a crank sensor fault code?

And back to my original post, is there a relay known to cause this particular issue?

Skyperr said:

Thanks for the reply. A couple of replies to the good points you have made.

The battery is only a few weeks old and the cranking speed is quite good. The earths were checked over prior to the replacement of the previous battery and all were good then. This does not appear to be a battery issue but will check everything to make sure this is so.

If the crank sensor was defective and causes the issue as described, would this generate a crank sensor fault code?

And back to my original post, is there a relay known to cause this particular issue?

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Ah! More information.
So why was the battery replaced? Starting problems perhaps?
Back to earlier post, check all the main connections. Main battery cable from positive to starter, needs to have clean connections.
Earth cable needs to be checked for clean connections at battery, body and gearbox. These have been known to corrode internally, so whilst each end may be good, current does not pass through as well as it should. This can be checked by putting a jump lead from battery negative to the gearbox or engine. Do this before the first attempt to start, to see if it then starts ok.

Fuel pump has a relay.
Pump should operate when ignition is turned on. This operates for a few seconds to pressurise the system. Listen for it.
It then operates again during cranking. Difficult to listen for, as starter makes more noise, but ear to back seat may help.
Pump will then only operate if oil pressure is ok, but this should be fine as it seems to work once running.

Turn key to put dash lights on, listen for pump.
When the pump stops and some of the dash lights extinguish, then turn key to start. Don't try to start too early, as fuel pressure may be lower. Don't wait after pump stops, as pressure may drop.

Report back.

The original battery dried up as it was a "maintenance free" battery and the starter turned really slowly, I opened the cells after it was replaced and they were dry. The cranking speed is good now.

Will do an MES code scan and listen for the fuel pump at key on, and will report back,

Skyperr said:

The original battery dried up as it was a "maintenance free" battery and the starter turned really slowly, I opened the cells after it was replaced and they were dry. The cranking speed is good now.

Will do an MES code scan and listen for the fuel pump at key on, and will report back,

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Is it "cool mornings" as in cool and dew on the car? It might be worth taking the HT leads off and plugs out and giving them and the coil insulators a clean. Any dirt is a nucleus for dew to form and that can cause issues.


Robert G8RPI.

Faulty crank sensor often gives no fault code as that can be how it looks when the engine is off. Saying that it could still be faulty.
See post 21 on here. https://www.fiatforum.com/panda/442063-turning-over-but-not-starting-2.html

However, it starts eventually and then runs fine I would check out the fuel pump. MutiECUScan might show pump pressure. If its low the engine wont start.

Alas I never got a chance to look at this. My sister has traded it in against a new car...

Skyperr said:

Alas I never got a chance to look at this. My sister has traded it in against a new car...

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That's one way of sorting it!

The waste bins on my car are full. Time to trade it in. I don't smoke so the ashtrays are clean. Should get good money against a new ...

(suggestions on a post card)

Skyperr said:

Alas I never got a chance to look at this. My sister has traded it in against a new car...

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Out of interest..what is offered in tradein value.??

SPORTPACK50 said:

That's one way of sorting it!

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Indeed!

varesecrazy said:

Out of interest..what is offered in tradein value.??

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There's a scrappage deal of sorts with Nissan here in Ireland, so she got a hefty discount off the price of a brand new Pulsar. Dealer was offering somewhere around €4K off the new price which in no way reflects the value of the Panda.

I asked because a new local car sales lot has a 54 /2004 panda for 2600 quid.

It was only 5600 new 12 years ago..!!

varesecrazy said:

I asked because a new local car sales lot has a 54 /2004 panda for 2600 quid.

It was only 5600 new 12 years ago..!!

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That's a little hopeful....
Classified ads on ebay seem to be around £1700 but one that sold as buy it now or auction are more like £700. However I can give you lots of examples of people selling things on ebay at inflated prices. There are at least 3 sellers of electronic components and tool who have just copied the Farnell website listings and doubled or tripled the prices. Bizarre thing is people buy from them even though Farnell will happily deal with individual buyers.


Robert G8RPI.