Technical Panda Axle repair

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Technical Panda Axle repair

The Ford Ka looks to have the 500 beam so maybe would also be an option. They've not been upgraded (officially) since the model started in 2009.

The Ka had the stiffer beam from launch.

IIRC Ford asked Fiat to redesign the beam for the Ka as they didn't consider the original 500 setup gave a good enough ride. Fiat then used the revised beam on the 500 from the 2010 model year onward, and on the 500C from launch.

The revised setup gives a better ride than the original, but nowhere near as good as the Mk1 Ka.
 
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I found this on Wikipedia

The main mechanical differentiator between the new Ka and its Fiat sibling is that the Ford has better shock absorption than the Fiat 500. Fitting a rear anti-roll bar enabled 30 percent softer springs and accordingly retuned dampers to improve ride performance over uneven road surfaces. Some of these improvements were subsequently adopted on Fiat 500 Abarth and Fiat 500C models.​

How about Ka or later 500 beam complete with springs and dampers. (y)

Perhaps not such a daft idea.
 
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I know the ideal solution is a new (used) rear axle but it looks like mine is fixable before its too late. A new axle is not low cost and Pandas hard to come by so I want alternative options.

The rear shock inner bracket is welded to the coil spring pan. Mine (both sides) are rotting but the spring pans still look ok.

Has anyone weld repaired a rusting rear axle? Does reinforcing that shock bracket keep the spring pan in place?

As an alternative will the Fiat 500 axle (drum brake) swap straight over to the 2003-2010 Panda?

I know it's frowned upon but I went down the repair route! Couldn't justify spending nigh on half the cars value buying a new axle set up from fiat so I got the old one welded. Repaired the damage then beefed it up! Total cost so far 150 quid as there was a fair bit of setting up and fiddling for the welder but he says other side should be cheaper and it's not actually broken (yet) just need reinforcing. Not overly pretty and needs properly painted.
 

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I know it's frowned upon but I went down the repair route! Couldn't justify spending nigh on half the cars value buying a new axle set up from fiat so I got the old one welded. Repaired the damage then beefed it up! Total cost so far 150 quid as there was a fair bit of setting up and fiddling for the welder but he says other side should be cheaper and it's not actually broken (yet) just need reinforcing. Not overly pretty and needs properly painted.

I had a similar idea. The spring pan seems to crack at the front (far side when viewed from under the bumper). A 3mm x 30mm steel strip could be bent to follow the pan from the swing arm end right around with a right angle bend at one end replace the rotted shock absorber bracket. It wouldn't be as elegant as Ricky's and would not save a totally rotted spring pan. But would be good enough for mine.

To do with any sort of quality, the axle would have to come off the car. But a rusty axle can't be derusted and painted while it's on the car.
 
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According to the specs the Ka and 500 have the same wheel track at 2"wider than the Panda. The quoted range of wheels are the same offset as the Panda. If the hubs are the same (likely), the 1" each side is in the hub carrier brackets

Looking at eBay adverts the 500/Ka have the same anti roll bar tucked inside the cross beam. I suspect the Panda would handle better with the 500/Ka beam but it would also need the softer springs which might not ride the same height.

Until someone tries one we wont know.

www.Carfoliio.com

500
wheelbase 2299mm 90.5 inch
track/tread (front) 1413mm 55.6 inch
track/tread (rear) 1407mm 55.4 inch

Ford Ka II (2007)
wheelbase 2300mm 90.6 inch
track/tread (front) 1414mm 55.7 inch
track/tread (rear) 1408mm 55.4 inch

Panda
wheelbase 2299mm 90.5 inch
track/tread (front) 1366mm 53.8 inch
track/tread (rear) 1357mm 53.4 inch
 
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According to the specs the Ka and 500 have the same wheel track at 2"wider than the Panda. The quoted range of wheels are the same offset as the Panda. If the hubs are the same (likely), the 1" each side is in the hub carrier brackets

Looking at eBay adverts the 500/Ka have the same anti roll bar tucked inside the cross beam. I suspect the Panda would handle better with the 500/Ka beam but it would also need the softer springs which might not ride the same height.

Until someone tries one we wont know.


Agreed. The photos I took suggest strongly that the dimensional difference is all in the hub carrier brackets.

From experience with the revised beam in the 500, I'm not sure it would handle any better, but it will certainly ride a little better.

I can confirm that both my Panda and 500 (revised beam) have the same ET35 offset on the wheels (the Panda is 13", the 500 14"), and the Panda can run on the 14" 500 wheels without anything fouling.
 
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I have been anticipating this problem for a few years now.

Last year I manged to source a rear axle complete with drums, shocks, cables and pipes for 150 quid from a 2011 panda that had done 30,000 miles. I thought this might be wise whilst they are still in reasonable condition.

I've stripped it all and it’s just waiting for me sort out the light rust on it!

I'm wondering if it’s possible to have it properly galvanised before I either sell it or eventually put it on the car?

The car I’ve had for the past 7 years is a 2004 dynamic sky-dome with 135k. It’s been undersealed yearly from when I purchased it and the axle requires attention every year. It’s not in too bad condition but does have some rust on it that keeps coming through every year. I probably anticipate that if I wasn’t so passionate about keeping it alive and running the rear axle would be dust in another 4 years or so. Brand new axles are well over £600 factoring in VAT.

My dad now drives the car to work and back, but when he retires in 2 years time, the panda will also be retiring! I then will only come out during the summer months, therefore, largely avoiding issues with corrosion.

I cannot see why the extra 2 inches from the 500/Ka beam would be an issue. I still think it would be unlikely to foul on the arches. However, I can foresee that you may well need longer brake pipes, slightly different handbrake cables, as well as shocks and springs.
 
I'm wondering if it’s possible to have it properly galvanised before I either sell it or eventually put it on the car?

I'd be concerned about issues with distortion; there's a lot of welds and angle sections which might not take too kindly to the heat of the process. Panda rear beams are dimensionally suspect as it is.

Cleaning it properly and treating with a quality corrosion proofer should be sufficient.

I cannot see why the extra 2 inches from the 500/Ka beam would be an issue. I still think it would be unlikely to foul on the arches. However, I can foresee that you may well need longer brake pipes, slightly different handbrake cables, as well as shocks and springs.

Your insurer might. I'm not sure how you'd declare this.

Brake pipes & cables may still fit; we won't know for sure until somebody tries it.

If sourcing a s/h unit, I can't see any reason for not getting the proper part; another advantage is that you might be able to get one from a later car without having shock/spring issues as the revised beam never made it to the Panda.
 
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Your insurer might. I'm not sure how you'd declare this.

Brake pipes & cables may still fit; we won't know for sure until somebody tries it.

If sourcing a s/h unit, I can't see any reason for not getting the proper part; another advantage is that you might be able to get one from a later car without having shock/spring issues as the revised beam never made it to the Panda.

That's certainly food for thought. That was my rationale; it is a lot easier than having to potentially change a few components. It would nevertheless be very interesting to see if anyone potentially attempts to fit a 500/Ka beam and if they hit any problems.

As for insurance, I guess it is deemed as a modification. I’m not sure how you’d get around that.

I will dedicate some time and energy to refurb this second axle I’ve acquired. It will no doubt be desirable once finished. If the car stays garaged through winter then it would make sense to sell it on.
 
Would bolting on a lump of zinc to the axle somehow, as a sacrificial anode, be possible?
 
Would bolting on a lump of zinc to the axle somehow, as a sacrificial anode, be possible?


Now that's a neat idea.
My Boston Whaler, as with many boats, has sacrificial anodes - based on zinc - in several places. They degrade over time to save the more 'noble' metals, such as the engine and out-drives, from corrosion.
They work best in water, and are not effective in dry conditions (such as when a boat is dry-stored).

Zinc anodes also need regular maintenance. They have to be replaced as their size diminishes, and they also have to be regularly removed, scraped clean, and refitted if they are to remain effective.

There would be some beneficial effect on a Panda axle, but nowhere near as great as on a boat - unless you daily drove through flooded roads, or lived by the sea where your car got showered in salt water!

No harm in trying, but on balance simply painting/ maintaining the axle will be far more effective.
There have been lots of suggestions on here about preserving the axle - but some of them require huge amounts of work. For the same result, just wipe it over from time to time with an oily rag - free and it works!
 
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The axle is easy enough to remove from the car.

Take it off, clean up the rust repaint with some posh stuff like POR-15 or Dinitrol and it will be good for another 10 years.

For a top job get it grit blasted and powder coated or even better electro plated. Prime over it and paint as usual.

Ho dip galvanising is done at 450 degs C. A basic chassis frame is unlikely to have any fancy heat treatments so should be ok but you'd need a metallurgist to know for sure.

There are grit blasting attachments for pressure washers so you could DIY and use a water based rust converting primer. and epoxy or polyurethane 2 pack painted.
 
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There have been lots of suggestions on here about preserving the axle - but some of them require huge amounts of work. For the same result, just wipe it over from time to time with an oily rag - free and it works!

An oily rag wont really do the job but a spray or brush with Waxoyl or even thinned chain saw oil will provide significant protection.

However most of us have cars bought new by people who flog them on because getting an MOT is sooo much hassle -

"I mean, one just doesn't does one?"​

Once corrosion has set in the only reliable fix is to remove the axle and properly clean off all the rusted clag. It will then accept a Wax-Por-Trol product to keep it nice for ever. If its bad enough replace the axle.

BTW, I found a Panda axle for £150 but it was rusted so will need a lot of elbow grease and Waxoyl or £100 worth of grit blasting and a professional primed powder coating. I've also found a 500 axle for less money that looks pristine so I'm going with that. Even with the costs of 500 springs its no more ££s than the claggy Panda axle.
 
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An oily rag wont really do the job but a spray with Waxoyl or even thinned chain saw oil will provide significant protection.



However most of us have cars bought new by people who flog them on because getting an MOT is sooo much hassle -



"I mean, one just doesn't does one?"​



Once corrosion has set in the only reliable fix is to remove the axle and properly clean off all the rusted clag. It will then accept a Wax-Por-Trol product to keep it nice for ever. If its bad enough replace the axle.



BTW, I found a Panda axle for £150 but it was rusted so will need a lot of elbow grease and Waxoyl or £100 worth of grit blasting and a professional primed powder coating. I've also found a 500 axle for less money that looks pristine so I'm going with that. Even with the costs of 500 springs its no more ££s than the claggy Panda axle.



I don't think a 500 axle will fit a panda does it?
 
I don't think a 500 axle will fit a panda does it?

Strictly speaking, definitely not.

The current consensus is that it will probably bolt on, but the rear wheels will certainly be in the wrong place (the track on the 500 is about 2" wider). Some folks think this won't be a dealbreaker, but until it's been tried, nobody knows for sure.

The situation is further complicated by the 500 having used two different types of rear beam during the production run. It is believed these are dimensionally identical, but need different springs & shocks.

Several people are working on this, with differing degrees of urgency and motivation.

Watch this space.
 
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This is my current thinking.

Early model 500 has the same axle as 169 Panda except the hub carrier brackets are wider on the 500 so wheels sit further apart.

The average used Panda axle costs from £150 most are well rusty if not structurally weakened. You will spend hours cleaning off the rust and repainting only for some of that rust to resurface. Alternatively get it grit blasted and properly powder coated with zinc phosphate primer for £100. Not an easy or cheap option.

The later model 500 and Fiat built Ford Ka have an anti roll bar and 30% softer springs. Other dimensions are the same. Ford wanted a better ride and handling for their new model Ka than the standard Fiat axle offered. Fiat fitted the new axles to later model 500.

My plan is to fit a later model 500 axle complete with springs and dampers. The used parts are cheaper than Panda parts so the overall cost is much the same as using my old rusty Panda springs on a new (to me) rusty Panda axle.

Basic Pandas have the rear wheel arch clearance. Cars like the 100bhp or anything with wide wheels will need to be measured carefully.
 
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What are the differences between the 100hp, the normal panda and the 500 rear axle? Is it just the bracket that holds the rear hubs on?

Had a look at my girlfriends 100hp and the rear axle is good, just the spring cups looks pretty flaky so starting to look at options. I would be happy to cut and shut the hub brackets from the 100hp to another axle if that is all that is needed.

Do they actually Fall apart that often or have they just been isolated cases in extreme cases of rusty axle?
 
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