Want to replace the suspension top mounts but cannot seem to get the bolts out of the bottom of the strut. I have undone them ok, but they won't come out.

I have given them a fair whack with a copper mallet, but didn't want to go too mad in case I was missing something and broke it.

Anyone else had this trouble or am I missing something? Do I just need to trash the living daylights out of it until the bolt comes out?

Any advice is appreciated

I struggled with my sisters Panda a while back and chewed one up.

They have a special thread on them, almost like it's tapered.

Try jacking up the wishbone slightly, just to take some of the hanging weight off the bolts.
The ratchet them out while tapping the other end with your copper mallet.

i tried that, and tried putting spring compressors on the spring to take any load off from there too

i cant seem to get the bolt to rotate much more than about 1/4 turn in either direction, even with a breaker bar. its the same on all of them, which is why i wondered if i was being special and not seeing something obvious!?

No, it's just how they can be - I had similar fun the other day with a Punto but at least I had the benefit of a set of oxy aceteline bottles. Try pouring a kettle of boiling water over the area.

Hi,
Many strut bolts have fine anti-rotation "splines" on the shank so should not be turned. Heat is a good idea, I use a hot air paint stripper. Put the nut back on to protect the threads (unless the bolt has a pointed end) and apply the hammer. In theory you should replace the bolts and nuts, but very few people do. Many dealers don't even stock these and other "one-use" fasteners.

Robert G8RPI.

They are just ordinary bolts, not tapered or splined. They've rusted in. Soak them in PlusGas, or another proper release agent. WD40 or equivalent is not good enough. Then get some push behind the breaker and make them rotate. Once they'll rotate, you can work them out by rotating them as you push/pull them out.
If you've thumped them a lot, you'll probably need new ones. Look at the head of the bolt, I think they are '10' grade, which means you must replace with the same. Not a stock item, so order from dealer. If they are 8.8, they are standard bolts.

No worries.

I will put some welly behind it and get them out.
Bloody fiat. My cinquecento bolts came out no troubles!

I have some higher tensile bolts at work I think. if not I will order some in. I would have thought some 8.8s would be fine anyway, but better to be safe than sorry.

dac69er said:

Bloody fiat. My cinquecento bolts came out no troubles!

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In fairness this is a problem common to most cars once they are a few years old.

The best solution is to remove, grease and replace any bolt you think you might need to remove later when you first get the car from new. Remeber if you do grease the bolts, use only 2/3 of the recommended torque settings or you'll overtighten them (and might even strip the threads).

I generally keep my cars for ten years or more, and this has saved me a great deal of grief over my lifetime. And for the doubters, I've never had a bolt come loose in service.

portland_bill said:

Soak them in PlusGas, or another proper release agent. WD40 or equivalent is not good enough.

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You can make a great release agent yourself by mixing acetone and ATF.

dac69er said:

I have some higher tensile bolts at work I think. if not I will order some in. I would have thought some 8.8s would be fine anyway, but better to be safe than sorry.

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I wonder how much of that higher tensile strength is left once the bolts are ten years old and well rusted . That's not to say I'm advocating fitting the wrong bolts.

Like I said, I never had any issues with my p reg cinquecento or my 25 year old Toyotas. Even my girlfriends old rusty fiesta was fine. It's just this damn panda, it's only 8 years old!!!!

I rarely torque anything up anyway tbh. I've been in engineering long enough to have the feel for it ��

dac69er said:

I rarely torque anything up anyway tbh. I've been in engineering long enough to have the feel for it ��

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TBH I can't put my hand on my heart and say I do this every time either.

For most non-technical folks without an engineering background, the risk of not properly torquing bolts is overtightening, not undertightening.

dac69er said:

It's just this damn panda, it's only 8 years old!!!!

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Guess you've never tried to track a Mk2 Astra, then; one of the real corroded fastening horrors. Most tyre fitting places won't touch 'em. The last time I changed a wishbone on one, I gave up after an hour of swearing.

I dislike working on most older cars, for this very reason. But I'd agree that once you discount the galvanised bits, the Panda is a rustbucket. I suspect corrosion related rear beam failures are going to put a lot of 10+ yr old Pandas off the road.

I know what you mean. One of my friends snapped bolts off left right and centre as he just did everything up too tight!

Most tire places I go too say the worst cars they get in are Bmw's. They say that even fairly new ones need quite a bit of heat to get certain bolts undone to do the tracking.

I mostly stick with Japanese imports myself, nothing is rusted on those

dac69er said:

I know what you mean. One of my friends snapped bolts off left right and centre as he just did everything up too tight!

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it's castings - in alloy and plastic that need to be fussy..,

TBH the only time I use my Norbar is for Head bolts - and then only for the initial - daftly low - figure

Brother-in-Law,
used the 2 Ft one as a breaker-bar..ignoring the "clicks"

The primary reason for torque fiqures on head, big-end and suspension bolts is to provide preload or stretch to prevent fatigue failures. If a torque plus angle is required this is almost certainly the reason, but only the designer knows for sure. Most road car joints have a big reserve factor so we can get away with less than perfect torque settings. Race cars and aircraft are much less tolerant due to minimal sizes to save weight and things will break if not done properly.

Robert G8RPI.

For suspension bolts you need a proper breaker bar. If you can't get access you need an extension bar supported on a jack. Preload the bolt - hard while some else hits the bar end to shock the fastener loose. You need a hefty lump hammer no faffing about tappety tap.

the extension bar will twist an absorb some of your force so a proper breaker bar is better - if you can get it into the job.

A hot air gun will get it hot enough to burn paint. If the nut is accessible angle grind it off.

Get new bolts as the old ones are likely to be weakened one way or another. Use a good quality anti seize paste. It wont (or shouldn't) affect torque values and stops rust messing up the threads. High tensile bolts seem to rust faster than ordinary 8.8 steel so always use a decent protection paste.

You need an impact socket wrench. I borrowed one from a local garage and it took 30 seconds to remove these bolts. Have now bought one. Aldi sell them sometimes for about £13 and worth every penny. I hav espent somewhat more on mine and find it great for all sorts of jobs. Ask a local garage to loosen the bolts it would be worth the cost of a drink I think. Loads of copper grease on reassembly!

petercresswell said:

Loads of copper grease on reassembly!

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I'm a great believer in copper grease on reassembly but if you do this, remember to use only 2/3 of the published dry torque settings or you'll overtighten them and stretch the bolts excessively.

The better anti seize pastes don't have such a big effect on torque settings. Check with the paste manufacturer.

jrkitching said:

I'm a great believer in copper grease on reassembly but if you do this, remember to use only 2/3 of the published dry torque settings or you'll overtighten them and stretch the bolts excessively.

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This is were the torque plus angle preload settings are good. The final preload is not affected by lubrication. I guess the Panda is bit too old for this technique though. Copaslip is not the best on light alloy components, the copper promotes electrolytic corrosion so is worse than plain grease. I use Ceratec grease on brake or high temperature parts in contact with light alloy, Copaslip is good for steel parts at high temperatures though.

Robert G8RPI

I use a high solids high temperature copper and carbon anti seize paste. Its worked well on motorbikes in areas that had corroded badly from the factory assembling it dry.

Ive got a marine non conductive grease which I'm sure would solve corrosion issues but its far too slippery for use on fasteners.

Engine cylinder head stretch bolts are specced for dry fitting. However once the head has been removed its virtually impossible to fully clean and dry the threads into the cylinder block. Compressed air will blow out oil and water but wont clean the threads.

Saying all that, head gaskets are often repaired with minimal thread cleaning but broken (overtightened) stretch bolts are unusual unless the job has been totally botched.

g8rpi said:

This is were the torque plus angle preload settings are good. The final preload is not affected by lubrication. I guess the Panda is bit too old for this technique though.

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IIRC the really critical engine bolts on the FIRE are angle tightened.

g8rpi said:

Copaslip is not the best on light alloy components, the copper promotes electrolytic corrosion so is worse than plain grease. I use Ceratec grease on brake or high temperature parts in contact with light alloy, Copaslip is good for steel parts at high temperatures though.

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I guess old gits like me should always be prepared to try new materials and methods. I've always used plain grease on chassis bolts; some of the marine ones are highly resistant to being washed off in service.

Whatever you use will likely be way way better than just assembling dry.

The only drawback to greasing bolts is you really need to degrease, wash & dry each time they are refitted, or you'll introduce contamination into the connection.

I've moved on from my grandfather, though, since I use one of the proprietary degreasing solvents.

My grandfather always used petrol for parts washing, but that was in the ethanol-free days. When times were hard, he'd dilute it with paraffin (paraffin was much cheaper than petrol then; folks used to use it in free standing heaters to warm their homes ).

When times were really hard, a proportion of the paraffin would somehow find its way into the fuel tank. Compression ratios were much lower back then.