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Technical Recommend a new Battery?

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Technical Recommend a new Battery?

SB1500

SB1500

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Parked in the garage Written a review
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As I'm aware, all the folk on here have had your Panda's for years, and after excellent help so far I'm wondering what battery I should go for?

My battery is original as far as I can tell, and with plans to get some beefy speakers and two front heated seat kits it is only ethical to make sure my Panda's battery is up to date, dependable and able to cope with a decent load of drain.

I'm aware there's different sizes, what is the maximum physical size for the 169 Panda?

In terms of capacity and output what should I look out for? Mines a Dynamic with no alarm or Aircon so I'd say it falls under a car with little equipment? However id like to add some extras in the next year which might add to that electrical load. Can adding a size up in terms of capacity harm the car and is it practical to achieve such demands as I'm proposing?

Some brands and models and how you've gotten on with them would be great too!

I think fitting it should be easy enough, unless I'm wrong but please do correct me if I've under estimated this?

Thanks, SB1500
 
I've just changed my battery and got a good deal from a company called Tayna Batteries for an 012 size battery, this is the battery that's in the diesel model and is the biggest that'll fit easily into the standard battery tray. It's up to you whether you go for the cheapest or a more premium model.
 
Most Easterly Pandas said:
The bigger the better ideally, as will mean it never has much load taken from it and should last longer as a result.
Click to expand...

The downside to fitting a larger capacity battery than you need is that it'll use a tiny bit more fuel, as larger batteries generally have a higher absoulte self discharge rate. Every time you use the car, you have to replace the power that's leaked away whilst the battery has been standing idle. The effect gets more pronounced as the battery ages.

The point at which it becomes economic to replace an ageing battery to save the fuel that's needed to offset the increasing self discharge rate will likely be reached well before the battery fails to start the car.

I did the sums once; fully charging a 60AH battery from dead flat will cost you about 40-50p in extra fuel, or about 15p in electricity if you use a mains charger.

Running a very old battery may be a false economy.
 
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jrkitching said:
The downside to fitting a larger capacity battery than you need is that it'll use a tiny bit more fuel, as larger batteries generally have a higher absoulte self discharge rate. Every time you use the car, you have to replace the power that's leaked away whilst the battery has been standing idle. The effect gets more pronounced as the battery ages.

The point at which it becomes economic to replace an ageing battery to save the fuel that's needed to offset the increasing self discharge rate will likely be reached well before the battery fails to start the car.

I did the sums once; fully charging a 60AH battery from dead flat will cost you about 40-50p in extra fuel, or about 15p in electricity if you use a mains charger.

Running a very old battery may be a false economy.
Click to expand...
I think I have my doubts about this. A good sealed lead acid battery shouldn't have more than 10% per month discharge rate. So you're looking at least a year worth of parking before you need to go from 0 too 100%. Probably more like two.

From my experience with batteries I'd say the car will fail to start well before you have such a discharge rate that you'll notice in the fuel consumption.

Let's say the fuel contains 35MJ/L (diesel is more, petrol less) and that you have a total efficiency to the charging of 20% (counting it low here). That's 7MJ/L charged. A 60Ah battery stores 12*60 = 720 Wh = 720 * 3600 J ~= 2.6 MJ. 4 deciliters of fuel for 1-2 years of self discharge.

Lets say the battery is close to dead and discharges 25% / month (making the car impossible to start without assistance) that's still not many cents per month to charge up.

This is very simplified however, you'll have more heat losses (higher internal resistance) in a bad battery when charging it and there are tons of factors unaccounted for. But I cannot see this ever being an argument for changing a battery to save money in fuel, unless you need help to start the car every morning. And then I'd change the battery for a completely different reason.:)

The difference between self-discharge of a large and small (good) battery I'd argue is within the margin of error.
 
SB1500 Replacing the battery is a breeze. Get the biggest that fits in the tray and you'll be set. The size might be less important than you think however, because when the car is running you'll be draining power from the alternator (and the engine) rather than the battery. It'll only be used for your loads when the engine is turned off. If you plan to use your car as a boombox (while stationary) a bigger battery or even a seperate battery bank might be of interest. With seperate batteries you don't risk getting stranded just because the music fades.:)

As I stated above, I wouldn't advice replacing a good working battery. If the car is easy to start and have no other electrical issues (e.g. power steering) you might as well wait.
 
Well, it can always be an option but it is a much more complicated one and you'll use up more space in the car. So make sure you need it before going down that route.

But in principle, you have the car alternator generating 12+ VDC, you can charge more batteries (it'll only take more time). Then with a battery isolator just use one of the battery banks for your aux loads and keep the starter battery tapped up.

Another option may be to charge the second battery bank only from the wall at home. If it's lithium it may even be portable to carry inside to charge. That way you don't need to modify the cars electrical system much at all. Lithium (LiFePO4) of course carry a different price tag. Maybe 5 times the price per Ah, if you're lucky.
 
jaywalk said:
I think I have my doubts about this. A good sealed lead acid battery shouldn't have more than 10% per month discharge rate. So you're looking at least a year worth of parking before you need to go from 0 too 100%. Probably more like two.
Click to expand...

Jaywalk, it's good to see someone else taking an interest in these numbers - and your calculation of the amount of fuel needed to fully charge a flat battery is much the same as mine.

One thing to remember is that battery self discharge rates are highly non-linear - a new battery may retain some charge after being left off a car for a year, but it'll still lose the top 10% of its charge in the first 24hrs - and it's this charge that the alternator has to keep replacing each time you use the car after it's been standing. How this varies with battery ageing is an interesting question, but the woes of S/S 500 owners would suggest the effect is greater than you might think. (I once jokingly said the best way to test a S/S battery was to put it in a 500 and see if it worked!)

You're also right in saying these are small numbers in the fuel economy equation and within the limits of error in any non-rigorous assessment; measuring differences in real-world economy of fractions of a percent is notoriously difficult. The only empirical evidence I have is that if I don't use my car for a week, it uses about 10% more fuel for the first 10 miles that if I used it on the same journey the next day. It would need proper scientific research with sophisticated test equipment to answer this one definitively - it would make a great project for a final year automotive engineering student.

You use more fuel than you might think generating electricity; probably about 5-10% of what goes in the tank. Reducing the amount of this that's wasted is at least worthy of consideration (and some manufacturers are spending serious money researching this).

In the absence of proper scientific data, I'll stand by what I've said about battery sizing - fitting a bigger one than you need is counterproductive and will end up costing you more.

But perhaps not much more, and if it saves your marriage after you've left the lights on whilst parked outside your mistress's house :devil:, it could be money well spent.
 
Last edited:
SB1500 said:
As I'm aware, all the folk on here have had your Panda's for years, and after excellent help so far I'm wondering what battery I should go for?

My battery is original as far as I can tell, and with plans to get some beefy speakers and two front heated seat kits it is only ethical to make sure my Panda's battery is up to date, dependable and able to cope with a decent load of drain.

Some brands and models and how you've gotten on with them would be great too!

I think fitting it should be easy enough, unless I'm wrong but please do correct me if I've under estimated this?

Thanks, SB1500
Click to expand...


did you get one..? :confused:
just searched and they are back down in price - now the warmer weather is here..:rolleyes:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/S4-001-Bo...087719?hash=item3f5b808027:g:zG8AAOSwvUlWqf09

Charlie
 
This post contains affiliate links which may earn a commission at no additional cost to you.
jrkitching said:
Jaywalk, it's good to see someone else taking an interest in these numbers - and your calculation of the amount of fuel needed to fully charge a flat battery is much the same as mine.

One thing to remember is that battery self discharge rates are highly non-linear - a new battery may retain some charge after being left off a car for a year, but it'll still lose the top 10% of its charge in the first 24hrs - and it's this charge that the alternator has to keep replacing each time you use the car after it's been standing. How this varies with battery ageing is an interesting question, but the woes of S/S 500 owners would suggest the effect is greater than you might think. (I once jokingly said the best way to test a S/S battery was to put it in a 500 and see if it worked!)

You're also right in saying these are small numbers in the fuel economy equation and within the limits of error in any non-rigorous assessment; measuring differences in real-world economy of fractions of a percent is notoriously difficult. The only empirical evidence I have is that if I don't use my car for a week, it uses about 10% more fuel for the first 10 miles that if I used it on the same journey the next day. It would need proper scientific research with sophisticated test equipment to answer this one definitively - it would make a great project for a final year automotive engineering student.

You use more fuel than you might think generating electricity; probably about 5-10% of what goes in the tank. Reducing the amount of this that's wasted is at least worthy of consideration (and some manufacturers are spending serious money researching this).

In the absence of proper scientific data, I'll stand by what I've said about battery sizing - fitting a bigger one than you need is counterproductive and will end up costing you more.

But perhaps not much more, and if it saves your marriage after you've left the lights on whilst parked outside your mistress's house :devil:, it could be money well spent.
Click to expand...

I'm split on this one, I think that always on electronics are likely to be at least an order of magnitude more than battery self discharge. At least until the plates start to shed material and self dischage goes up. Another downside of a larger than required battery is added weight. This can be significant on a small car. A quality battery of the right size is better than a cheap bigger one. The exception to this is if you have equipent that you need to use with the engine off such as emergency lights or amateur radio equipment. But then you are probably looking at twin batteries and a split charge system. I prefer Bosch or Yuasa batteries personally.

Robert G8RPI.
 
Just took another read at this. With plans of fitting a new 6 speaker set and very much using the car as my personal 'boom box' and heater in the winter I'd like that ability to sit for up to an hour with the engine off (attainable?)

Would a Bosch S4 be sufficient for a dynamic with no options added in terms of achieving this or is an S5 necessary?

I'm shopping on the previous point made that 012 size is the largest I can easily fit.

As for brands I trust Bosch - not to insult any of the others just I recognise it.

Might get this NOW in the summer as I assume prices rise at winter
 
SB1500 said:
Just took another read at this. With plans of fitting a new 6 speaker set and very much using the car as my personal 'boom box' and heater in the winter I'd like that ability to sit for up to an hour with the engine off (attainable?)

Would a Bosch S4 be sufficient for a dynamic with no options added in terms of achieving this or is an S5 necessary?

I'm shopping on the previous point made that 012 size is the largest I can easily fit.

As for brands I trust Bosch - not to insult any of the others just I recognise it.

Might get this NOW in the summer as I assume prices rise at winter
Click to expand...




I'm not convinced too much by brand to be honest, I generally look at Eurocarparts as a base price. A few weeks back they had 25% off online (and as it turns out 30% off in-store). Exide for me would be fine.


Basically, I look at the Cold-crank amps and general power (45Ah or more) and also the guarantee. Defo cheaper in summer though as you had figured.
 
AB100 said:
I'm not convinced too much by brand to be honest, I generally look at Eurocarparts as a base price. A few weeks back they had 25% off online (and as it turns out 30% off in-store). Exide for me would be fine.


Basically, I look at the Cold-crank amps and general power (45Ah or more) and also the guarantee. Defo cheaper in summer though as you had figured.
Click to expand...

See my post in the Croma section, I bought a "Duracell" branded battery from Eurocarparts. It's made by Banner and appears to be their "Power Bull" range" . Quality, low cost (25% off till end of the month = £62 for a big 096) and 5 year warranty.


Robert G8RPI.
 
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