hi are Diesel pandas worth buying these days i have a petrol 2006 model and was thinking of a px on a newer model say 2009 2010

Hi,

I'm not sure if the later ones around that period of 09/10 had a diesel particulate filter installed. Therefore, if it does, ensure you do give the car an ''Italian tune up'' every so often.

As with every car, oil changes are very important - more so on the 1.3 Multijet. The chain requires clean oil and from what I've heard the chains will break if you fail to keep up with servicing.

Other than that, I'm sure they're a sound choice and if it doesn't have a DPF -even better!!

Matt.

I'd stay stick with what you have .I have a Panda diesel and am getting increasingly concerned at the rate it goes through front radius arms and front tyres .This has to be offset against any savings on fuel .Of course the diesel has a nice bit of usable torque (as long as you keep actuator arm freed up , it's not on many of them ) But the petrol is more fun to redline and handles (way) better ...

DO the petroleum eat their front suspensions and tyres as well?I reckon my 160k diesel Panda is on its fourth set of front arms ,certainly it's had three -two new- in the sixty k miles I've put up .But it IS light on fuel and generally VERY reliable .

ytareh said:

I'd stay stick with what you have .I have a Panda diesel and am getting increasingly concerned at the rate it goes through front radius arms and front tyres .This has to be offset against any savings on fuel .Of course the diesel has a nice bit of usable torque (as long as you keep actuator arm freed up , it's not on many of them ) But the petrol is more fun to redline and handles (way) better ...

DO the petroleum eat their front suspensions and tyres as well?I reckon my 160k diesel Panda is on its fourth set of front arms ,certainly it's had three -two new- in the sixty k miles I've put up .But it IS light on fuel and generally VERY reliable .

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I don't seem to have the same trouble as you with arms and tyres. I'm at over 102K miles and the local roads are lumpy enough. Is there another issue with yours causing wear or have you a lot of speed ramps to go over?

I like the diesel engine. As said before, I'll recommend regular oil changes. I don't believe our generation Panda had a dpf. The Multijet engine was dropped before the final run of manufacturing along with the 1.4 engine due to the Euro emissions changing. The newer generation have dpf fitted. The dpf does require a recharge run but it's not quite an Italian tune-up as such as it's recommended to run the car at a constant 50mph for half an hour or so. I'd say that as long as you mainly do journeys of a distance to allow the car to get up to full temperature (this might be as much as 10 miles in the winter cold for me going across town at max 50mph), then you should be fine. You might get a little soot building up but when you have the car at temperature, you can clear it with a quick burst. If the car does a lot of short journeys where it doesn't reach running temperature, you will be more likely to have problems with build ups. Mpg is good. I'd generally get approx 65 on a tankful (properly measured as opposed to going on what the car says) and diesel has gone below the petrol price for now so even better.

Second Wee Smurf's comments.

Mine is a 2009, without dpf, and 'breathed on' with egr blanked, mapped, induction mod and a polycarbon/stainless back box - effectively a complete exhaust system without any baffles or restriction. For what it is, it goes like stink, and can be a 'lazy man's drive' if you want it - the wide flat torque spread means you need not bother the gearbox very often when making real progress if you're in that mood. The slight mods I've done have transformed the car.

I don't get the ultra-economy of some here, possibly because I enjoy the 'squirt' too often, but it averages low to mid 60's. If I really try on a long run I have seen 80mpg over a few hundred mile journey - but that's driving with eggs under my feet.

I also run 14" wheels with fatter tyres, and I haven't seen any unusual wear in front suspension, as mentioned above. It's a fun car and a bit of a'wolf in sheep's clothing', with useful economy thrown in.

I bought it for all-round economy (fuel, low wear rates, low road tax and insurance, etc) not expecting to like it much, but I now really enjoy driving it.

I ABSOLUTELY agree about the "wolf in sheeps clothing"! It's a stunning little thing fast, grunty ( tows a 16ft boat a cinch) and handles a dream . It handles and sticks to the road like a go kart. Beautifully and solidly built .....mines a 2005......with no rattles and no rust. If there's a fault it's the complexity of all the interacting electronic management systems and "contact fatigue" ......where old , dirty , or badly maintained electrical contacts work intermittently or erratically. Chuck in the low quality of most mechanics who don't think hard about what they're doing and you start to get problems. If you have a "panda specialist" near you that won't be a problem.......but they're like hens teeth!

Sweetsixteen said:

Second Wee Smurf's comments.

Mine is a 2009, without dpf, and 'breathed on' with egr blanked, mapped, induction mod and a polycarbon/stainless back box - effectively a complete exhaust system without any baffles or restriction. For what it is, it goes like stink, and can be a 'lazy man's drive' if you want it - the wide flat torque spread means you need not bother the gearbox very often when making real progress if you're in that mood. The slight mods I've done have transformed the car.

I don't get the ultra-economy of some here, possibly because I enjoy the 'squirt' too often, but it averages low to mid 60's. If I really try on a long run I have seen 80mpg over a few hundred mile journey - but that's driving with eggs under my feet.

I also run 14" wheels with fatter tyres, and I haven't seen any unusual wear in front suspension, as mentioned above. It's a fun car and a bit of a'wolf in sheep's clothing', with useful economy thrown in.

I bought it for all-round economy (fuel, low wear rates, low road tax and insurance, etc) not expecting to like it much, but I now really enjoy driving it.

Click to expand...

Sweet Sixteen.....tell us more about your exhaust system.....is it just the back box you've changed and who was the supplier? I guess my 2005 car will be a non DPF car? And regards your remapping , is that via a chip or proper remap (cost and where) and what is your BHP and do you sense the upped torque might impact the gearbox and clutch?

Prontissimo said:

Sweet Sixteen.....tell us more about your exhaust system.....is it just the back box you've changed and who was the supplier? I guess my 2005 car will be a non DPF car? And regards your remapping , is that via a chip or proper remap (cost and where) and what is your BHP and do you sense the upped torque might impact the gearbox and clutch?

Click to expand...

Yep - just the back box changed. No dpf on mine, so I now have straight-through from Cat. Here's a pic of the box i used, except mine is a single pipe by choice (don't like being too obvious).



They are made by Polyzhaust, out of a polymer with perforated stainless pipe running through. No baffles, and you can see daylight right through them. Nice burble without being too loud.

Here's the car



More or less bog standard externally except for 14" Punto wheels and 500 trims, smoothed and painted black in the centres. Like the low-key look.

And here's the tuning module:



They're unusual because they're made in small numbers by a guy I know called RoverRon. He started off tuning Rover V8's and will now make a box for almost any car. I've tried several other boxes and this one is way ahead. I had blanked off my egr at first, but then decided to try the delete mod instead. Lot of work but I enjoy messing.

Nothing outlandish on the car, and certainly nothing for show - but the results are great.

You need to do some sums.
Work out if the extra costs of a diesel is going to pay you back.

I would think you'd need to be doing quite a bit of mileage for it to be worth considering when you think a later "Eco" petrol model is the same £30 a year to tax and will return high 40's or even 50 mpg on a steady run.
(though I don't see the low taxation classes remaining too much longer for diesels)

Diesels do have there problems too, wastegate seizing and EGR trouble are two main ones for this model.

A bigger concern are emissions, particulates are one and DPF's have helped (but aren't really the answer as anyone with one fitted will tell you).
The trouble everyone has now realised is the nitric oxide and nitrogen dioxide they produce are a major concern.

We were sold them as a cleaner alternative (CO2 wise they are) but that is only half the story, they pollute vasts amounts of NOx and now anyone with one will soon start to pay in the usual way, taxation.

Some London councils are already hammering £100+ (Islington, Chelsea etc) on top if their usual charge for on street parking permits for diesel cars.

There has been some talk of Selective Catalytic Reduction on new diesel engines which we're told will help the issue and there have been calls for laws and/or incentives for owners of older (more polluting) vehicles to fit them.

The last I heard on the subject was Mercedes were considering pulling the plug on diesel engines on the whole of their van range and certain passenger vehicles if the new emission regs stood as is currently proposed.

Goudrons said:

There has been some talk of Selective Catalytic Reduction on new diesel engines which we're told will help the issue and there have been calls for laws and/or incentives for owners of older (more polluting) vehicles to fit them.
The last I heard on the subject was Mercedes were considering pulling the plug on diesel engines on the whole of their van range and certain passenger vehicles if the new emission regs stood as is currently proposed.

Click to expand...

Good thread, this, plenty of knowledgeable input.

Selective Catalytic Reduction technology has been around for years.
It goes by other names - DEF, and AdBlue for example.
Can't see how such a system could be retrofitted though.
AdBlue is basically sheep's pee! Or Urea. It is poured into a separate tank (on Mercs anyway) and gets shot into the exhaust system to deep-clean it all. Among many other manufacturers using Adblue technology, Mercedes reckon that this technology reduces NOx by about 90% if the figures are to be believed. In theory this does away with the NOx emissions problems with diesels, but of course it adds complexity to the engine and relies heavily on the ECU to keep it all running correctly.

Give me old tech diesels any day. If they ever stopped, it was always a fuel starvation problem which was usually easily fixed.

The technology is there to help clean them up (admittedly most of it unreliable) the problem is who will want to pay for it?

Some still consider it reasonable to cough up a bit more for a diesel over a petrol due to mpg, but it's fast getting past that point.

More emissions related parts cost money, so it puts the prices up.
Off hand I don't know what sheep **** costs, but I bet it ain't cheap in a bottle with a Mercedes badge stamped on it!

Then factor in all this emissions stuff has effectively turned a reliable engine into a liabilty!
Injectors now last months rather than decades and cost 100x more.
EGR's are a thorn in everyones side.
DPFs are a PITA.
And now bluepiss to add to the running costs!

I'm going to spend all evening lushing after a Mec W123 240D!

Sweetsixteen said:

Good thread, this, plenty of knowledgeable input.

Selective Catalytic Reduction technology has been around for years.
It goes by other names - DEF, and AdBlue for example.
Can't see how such a system could be retrofitted though.
AdBlue is basically sheep's pee! Or Urea. It is poured into a separate tank (on Mercs anyway) and gets shot into the exhaust system to deep-clean it all. Among many other manufacturers using Adblue technology, Mercedes reckon that this technology reduces NOx by about 90% if the figures are to be believed. In theory this does away with the NOx emissions problems with diesels, but of course it adds complexity to the engine and relies heavily on the ECU to keep it all running correctly.

Give me old tech diesels any day. If they ever stopped, it was always a fuel starvation problem which was usually easily fixed.

Click to expand...

"Give me old tech diesels any day".......but they ain't fabulous little DOHC, 16 valve , 1.3 litre turbo motors ! Seems to me that by tuning them in the way you have is to kind of "move them back in time" to a halfway house between old tech and "new tech" eliminating the EGR etc. Seems to me that's really sensible . I think that little Fiat 1.3 motor is capable of much more if it was properly balanced and worked on in other ways. In particular the exhaust manifold is very crude . I'm not sure how critical exhaust gas flow is on a turbo motor but always thought good gas flow was important for clean cylinder charging. I'm sure a tuning boffin could squeeze more out of them.......maybe 140bhp!
I reckon the smart money in years to come might go for degraded reputation , over complex modern diesels which maybe drop in price because people are frightened of their complexity and "neanderthelize" them to some degree, through informed tuning methods, bypassing the hassle technology ......and getting extraordinary performance and drive ability on the cheap! Maybe it's already happening.

Sweetsixteen said:

Yep - just the back box changed. No dpf on mine, so I now have straight-through from Cat. Here's a pic of the box i used, except mine is a single pipe by choice (don't like being too obvious).

View attachment 158569

They are made by Polyzhaust, out of a polymer with perforated stainless pipe running through. No baffles, and you can see daylight right through them. Nice burble without being too loud.

Here's the car

View attachment 158571

More or less bog standard externally except for 14" Punto wheels and 500 trims, smoothed and painted black in the centres. Like the low-key look.

And here's the tuning module:

View attachment 158570

They're unusual because they're made in small numbers by a guy I know called RoverRon. He started off tuning Rover V8's and will now make a box for almost any car. I've tried several other boxes and this one is way ahead. I had blanked off my egr at first, but then decided to try the delete mod instead. Lot of work but I enjoy messing.

Nothing outlandish on the car, and certainly nothing for show - but the results are great.

Click to expand...

Mines a "sporting" 2005 in metallic black with 50k miles. ( I'd post a pic but I've forgotten how to and can't figure it out) . I spoke to Rover Ron who was very helpful. I'm in two minds about whether to go for his box and do the physical or electronic EGR delete or to go for a remap locally with a remap EGR delete. It'll cost me £120 extra if I go for the remap route but the wiring won't be mullered by my inexpert brain if I go for your electronic fix , or if I go for the mechanical EGR blanking plate I won't have to do the hassle dismantling at the back of the head to put it in. I figure £120 ain't so bad for an easy life!

Either way it makes the car cleaner and more enjoyable!

Sweetsixteen said:

Yep - just the back box changed. No dpf on mine, so I now have straight-through from Cat. Here's a pic of the box i used, except mine is a single pipe by choice (don't like being too obvious).

View attachment 158569

They are made by Polyzhaust, out of a polymer with perforated stainless pipe running through. No baffles, and you can see daylight right through them. Nice burble without being too loud.

Here's the car

View attachment 158571

More or less bog standard externally except for 14" Punto wheels and 500 trims, smoothed and painted black in the centres. Like the low-key look.

And here's the tuning module:

View attachment 158570

They're unusual because they're made in small numbers by a guy I know called RoverRon. He started off tuning Rover V8's and will now make a box for almost any car. I've tried several other boxes and this one is way ahead. I had blanked off my egr at first, but then decided to try the delete mod instead. Lot of work but I enjoy messing.

Nothing outlandish on the car, and certainly nothing for show - but the results are great.

Click to expand...

. This is mine , 2005 Sporting. They came with 14" wheels.....and the body kit. Posting an image is driving me mad on this site.....anybody got any tips about what I'm doing wrong?!

Prontissimo said:

. This is mine , 2005 Sporting. They came with 14" wheels.....and the body kit. Posting an image is driving me mad on this site.....anybody got any tips about what I'm doing wrong?!

Click to expand...

I'm going for the remap with an EGR delete within the remap. Mines developed a couple of minor glitches. Cold starting ain't good .
1. Sometimes it cranks overlong ....sometimes not .....and sometimes the heater plug icon stays on and sometimes not. (Reckon it's likely a poor connection, faulty sensor, or relay itself). Starting from warm or an engine that's been left even for five hours or so it starts quickly and willingly.
2. Having started from cold within a minute or two the engine falters momentarily and then picks up . Once it did stop altogether. ( reckon it's a poor sensor or connection).
3. Erratic MPG readout on display. Sometimes on the same bit of road at same engine temp MPG can vary between 50mpg and 100mpg! Sometimes it stays at a set figure for 3 or 4 minutes. Guess it's an ECU fault or contact fatigue or dirty contacts maybe.
4. Sometimes when starting it behaves strangely and there's a puff of blue smoke. ( a fueling issue rather than engine oil from a worn engine I think as oil consumption is nil and performance is great) .
5. Heater control is odd. Virtually no heat until the dial is set to 2 o'clock when very slight heat can be felt. When fully turned up to six o'clock heat output seems to be normal for max heat.
Apart from that she runs beautifully, averaging around 62mpg, loads of power and torquey. She's done 50k miles . I'm running Fuchs 5-30 GT1 oil with 5k oil changes.

How is a remap going to fix your faults ? Start by finding out which heater plugs are faulty first .. at least two by the sounds of it.

Second that - glow plugs suspect. Easy enough to check using a multimeter.

The instant fuel consumption readout is a waste of space in my view. It will vary enormously with even a headwind, and really tells you nothing. The average mpg is much more valuable and sensible.

Sort the glitches first and clear the logged codes - this will give you a clear deck for upgrading.

Agree about the great economy. Terrific little cars!

notsmartcars said:

How is a remap going to fix your faults ? Start by finding out which heater plugs are faulty first .. at least two by the sounds of it.

Click to expand...

Yep ...will do. I don't think it is the plugs because sometimes it starts willingly from cold and the plug icon doesn't stay on . I suspect it's contact fatigue in a sensor or the relay , or contacts to the relay, itself. I don't expect remap to fix faults. If I remember rightly resistance for a working heater plug is 1-2 ohms ? First job to day to measure them.

Sweetsixteen said:

Second that - glow plugs suspect. Easy enough to check using a multimeter.

The instant fuel consumption readout is a waste of space in my view. It will vary enormously with even a headwind, and really tells you nothing. The average mpg is much more valuable and sensible.

Sort the glitches first and clear the logged codes - this will give you a clear deck for upgrading.

Agree about the great economy. Terrific little cars!

Click to expand...

It's not just the economy....the whole package is knockout. Really well built, incredible road holding , plenty of headroom, upright seating position, great gear change......and that fabulous little motor ( with no DPF on earlier cars )! I've only had it 8 weeks but I suspect the glitches mentioned have been longstanding (along with a seized wastegate and clogged cat which are both now fixed). I suspect it's been in for heater plug changes , maybe even a new MAF but they've been unable to accurately diagnose what might be wrong. The problem with these highly tuned modern diesels is getting to the bottom of what might be wrong. Even trained up so called specialists can't often figure it out exactly from the fault codes I think. Maybe the fault codes don't give enough info. On the plus side when these motors are driven by grannies and the wastegate seizes and cat then clogs up.....the engines CANT get stressed so a misbehaving one can be a great buy for someone who has some insight . One crucial aspect of these cars is the tiny engine oil capacity and the huge 12k miles oil change recommendation for a revvy engine capable of big power output and torque . Mine only holds 2.5 litres which is a tiny amount and the filter is pretty small . And Fiat recommend only a B3 grade of oil which I think is not a grade for extended change intervals whereas B4 oils are......and B4 oils (and higher) will create less particulates and soot too. So a lesser grade of oil and overlong service intervals can compromise the longevity of the motors. So I reckon 5-6k oil changes are sensible . Another problem is the incorrectly assembled air cleaners which can allow water past the gaskets. I've fixed mine and it works fine now and safely but the alternative fix is as per Sweetsixteens cone filter. But fabulous "wolf in sheeps clothing"! Wonderful. I wonder what power they could produce when REALLY breathed on by a diesel tuning boffin.....with new cams , exhaust manifold etc. I reckon it could be nudging up to close to 190bhp. I wonder if anyone has really gone to town on these motors? Any ideas?