Goudrons said:

Your best bet is to pursue a diagnosis first, once this has been found your options will then open up.
Seeing as you aren't prepared to pay for this, you need to chase the dealer to do this.

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You do not need a diagnosis to go to court, just a fault. If the court thinks it is nessesary they will direct that an expert witness is appointed. The cost of this is initally split between defendant and claimant. If (when) you win your costs will be part of the judgement. If you pay for a diagnosis (expert witness) first, the court will normally not allow it as evidence. Just pay the other garage that looked at it to confirm that there is an issue. Not what cause is.

Robert G8RPI.

Wee Smurf said:

I'd say that if they have offered to take the car for a month and see about repairing it, then you'll have to let them. They're giving you another car as a replacement in the meanwhile so you won't be off the road. The timescale of a month might seem long but that probably will be to allow the garage to have one person working on it. That way it's not being passed between a number of people so that person will know what has been done and what else still has to be done and nothing will get missed. My Panda required this kind of attention with its timing chain issue, but I wasn't left without a car so it was fine for me.

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It's a new purchase which is not fit for purpose and may well have other hidden damage that may only show up in the long term.
How many of the people saying "let the garage have a go" would buy a used car if they knew it had been run without oil in it and had had oil coming out the exhaust? I know I would not.

On the Small Claims Court, you can do the initial application online and if the garage has any integrity they will pay straight away to keep it off their record.

The web address for staring a claim is
https://www.gov.uk/make-money-claim-online
Don't forget to include the cort fee and INTEREST on the purchase price. This is 8% calculated on a daily basis so quickly ads up.

There is more ifo here
https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money/overview

Robert G8RPI.

I think the jist of the original post may have been lost.

If it is not fit, why has the owners carried on using the vehicle? (see reference to 600 mile trip)

To reject it, the owner should have returned it within a reasonable time (three or four weeks) and discontinued using it.

Yet they have done neither of these things, even after advise from a breakdown company and after another garage has surmised there might be an issue, which is why I am expressing my view they are to try and resolve this in a different way.

To go direct to court to claim for a fault:
No one quite knows what or why or when it developed.
No one has confirmed it actually exsists.
That the seller hadn't the chance to inspect, put right, exchange or refund.
And the owner has carried on using.
And expected to win? More like loose a lot of money.

By all means go to court, but please have confirmation there is a fault, it's for you to "prove" these probable, not the dealer to prove they weren't.
That it was extremely probable it was there when you bought it, so the vehicle was not of satisfactory quaility at that time.
Or did not meet the description given.

When considering the above, it might be worth checking out the Audi TFSI situation as oil consumption can be a very contentious area.
Audi fully admit there is an issue with piston rings and oil consumption on certain engines due to manufacturing, but will only review each car that is out of warranty, case by case, with no promises of footing the bill for repair or replacement.
Amazingly, they are operating within the same laws as everyone else!

If the car was not described as being in excellent condition or good working order (often these sales are referred to as Sold as Seen, Trade or a Part Exchange vehicle), your rights are very limited, if none exsistent.

If you are in any doubt you cannot fulfill the above, I stand by my original post of trying to sort this out with the dealer amicable.

There is an element of shooting in the dark here.

What is not yet clear is how long the OP has had the car, or how far he has driven it. His initial post covers a vague period of around three weeks, and a definite mileage of 600 plus, but the total is uncertain, and both figures could be much greater.

Additionally, the car's total mileage is vague. What exactly does '14500k' mean?
Is it 14,500 miles - or is it a huge 145 thousand miles? The figure as given is unclear. Bear in mind it's a 59 car, so far from new. Does the OP know any of its history?

It would be sensible to clarify as much information as possible before finally deciding on the next steps. If the dealer continues to stonewall, there is little point in approaching Trading Standards - or as a last resort the SCC - before having such facts clearly set out. Either of those authorities will react much more favourably if a clear-cut resume is presented to them, especially if - as if often the case - the dealer fails to attend any hearing or arrives poorly prepared.

Hi the car on purchase had fourteen thousand five hundred miles on the clock at purchase. It currently is approaching 18 thousand miles. Bearing in mind I purchased the car in Prescot and live in Swansea it initially had a 250 mile journey home.without any apparent faults. It then has made a trip to Mansfield on four occasions in the month we have owned it as my mother in law lives there and is currently severely ill an estimated 1600 miles. Plus 2 trips back and fore Prescot. On return from the 1st Mansfield trip my wife dipped the oil and noticed it was extremely low and I noticed oily like droplets on the rear bumper and tailgate.( before anyone says it yes it was along trip and all cars use oil but over a litre a fortnight?).considering the oil and filter had been changed as part of the service? We immediately drew the conclusion it had not been done. I then booked the car into a fiat dealer in Cwmbran for a service at my own expense mentioning to him the lack of oil and also the oil splatters on the back of car.he agreed that people's had never done the service and told me that the mess on the back was road dirt and old oil soot that was coming out of exhaust and that they had drilled a small hole in the exhaust to release this mess. Being an Alfa and fiat specialist I had no reason to doubt his diagnosis until 14 days later when the oil was nearly bone dry again. We called recovery out who told us the policy only covered recovery to a local garage and that the fitter suspected worn piston rings.I immediately contacted people's ford in the morning and was told to use my ford warranty that they had provided to obtain service.this was easier said than done as my local ford dealer cem day of Swansea did not want it in there workshop.so I then tried Bridgend ford same response. So I then telephoned ford warranty head office in Brentwood who after a lot of trying told us that as it was a fiat they suggested we returned it to people's ford to sort out. So on advice from ford warranty that once filled with oil it should be ok to drive we drove 250 miles back to Prescot. They took it in workshop filled it with oil and the service manager requested we drove 600 miles over the weekend and reported back to him which we did car had moved to quarter mark on dip stick.he then informed us that he could not get a loan car for a month so we would have to wait.and then they would require the car in the workshop for a period of 1 month. UPDATE Out of the blue I received an automated phone call asking was I satisfied with my purchase from people's I pressed no.I today received a phone call from the Liverpool area manager of people's ford who after hearing the whole saga said he was horrified at the way we had been treated and that he will have the car in the workshop Monday after next and we would be provided with a loan car and he would sort out some fuel and more importantly would do his upmost to rectify the problem.
Rightly or wrongly we agreed to this and will keep you all updated with the outcome. I am not a money grabber and would rather keep the car that we love as long as it is repaired and warranted whole thing is just upsetting us now and we seek closure

I support your choice. Looking forward to hearing the outcome.

Good luck I know how frustrating this can be. My girlfriend has had two Mazda 2 1.3's and my sister has one. All three cars burn a litre of oil within 1000miles. Not good for 2008,2010,2011 cars. While my 1996 Bravo and my dads 1996 Mitsubishi Charisma do not use a noticeable amount within a year.

Sweetsixteen is right in as much as there is some "shooting in the dark" going on here. The most important thing is to have the fault correctly diagnosed before you can move on. Presumably this is what People's Ford are trying to do.

Having said that, we're not dealing with the Starship Enterprise Impulse Drive system here. The Otto four cycle engine has been basically unchanged since the end of the 19th century so any trained mechanic should be able to work out what has gone wrong and how to fix it. The 1.1 Eco is a FIRE engine and has been in production since the first Puntos came out; Ford have been making SOHC 8-valve engines since 1971; Vauxhall since 1968 and FIAT since before that.

This is not the proverbial rocket science. If the problem is piston rings then a day, or possibly two is all that should be needed for them to check them and tell you what's needed. Add another 48 hours (tops) for the parts to arrive and another day (or two) to put it all back together.

It might be worth checking with FIAT if they have a menu time for replacing the rings to get an idea as to how long it should take.

Different cars do use oil at different rates. My Panda MJ has never needed more than a litre between services which are usually around 10,000 miles apart. So far she's done 96,000 miles. The 156 has covered around 105,000 and once again has never needed more than a litre between services. A neighbour had a Peugeot 207 petrol and noticed it was getting through a lot of oil. I suggested she checked on a 207 Forum and, sure enough, they said that a litre per thousand miles was typical. I never did find out where the oil went, but, as she always had it cleaned at the local hand wash every week, any evidence on the rear of the car probably got washed away.

Lastly, although main dealers are a pain in the proverbial, they have what many sellers don't, a reputation. When publications such as What Car get involved with customer complaints the dealer often caves in as the last thing they want is their dirty laundry aired in public.

From where I sit you seem to have been very reasonable and perhaps now is the time to start making veiled threats. You should be able to demand that a Ford dealer local to you carry out the work and and imply that if they can't give you a satisfactory answer within a week then it will be time to consider taking legal steps. Despite the provisions of Caveat Emptor, buying a low mileage car from a major manufacturer at large main dealer who normally sell cars from one of the biggest makers in the world should suffice. Having East Ham mentioned here leads me to believe that you will have seen your share of Arthur Daley types and have chosen to avoid them and use a reputable dealer instead. The main reason for doing this would be an expectation of a certain standard of product and a good level of service.

One other thought, Ford Dealers should not have an issue with Fiat engines, the new Ka is a Fiat 500
As the publicity people have got involved (the "are you happy" email was probably from an independent research company with results going to Ford)
They may well sort it out.
Good luck.

Robert G8RPI.

As a side note, if you've legal cover on your home insurance us this, as should normally cover consumer disputes

Nobody yet has raised the thorny question of whether the car has been clocked.
Considering the low mileage for the age of the car, this is a very real possibility, which is why contacting the previous owner and examining closely all previous Mot's would be very sensible.

Sweetsixteen said:

Nobody yet has raised the thorny question of whether the car has been clocked.
Considering the low mileage for the age of the car, this is a very real possibility, which is why contacting the previous owner and examining closely all previous Mot's would be very sensible.

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Might also be worth running a HPi check which normally checks mileage also iirc.

Most Easterly Pandas said:

Might also be worth running a HPi check which normally checks mileage also iirc.

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the MOT will show the dates + mileage of the last 4 tests..,

for FREE

Charlie

varesecrazy said:

the MOT will show the dates + mileage of the last 4 tests..,

for FREE

Charlie

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Might not even be four tests, depending exactly when the car was first registered. If the car was clocked during its first three years, then that might be more difficult to trace.

Plenty of good and varied advice in this thread for the OP. Whatever the real situation, he has a car with an unusual fault and therefore a legitimate claim, so let's hope he perseveres and gets it sorted.

Condolences to the OP.

The 1.1 FIRE is generally a trouble-free and reliable engine, provided it is never run when low on either oil or coolant. If either of these situations occur, even if only for a few minutes, then all bets are off and the likelihood is the engine will be damaged beyond economic repair. Faced with this situation, what usually happens is that the minimum work necessary is done to get the car running again and the car is often sold on quickly, so that the long term problems pass to the new owner.

Fixing this engine properly will likely cost more than the selling dealer's profit on the car, so I strongly suspect the dealer will want to do the minimum necessary and hope the car makes it through the remaining guarantee period without failing outright.

This is basically another "I bought a secondhand lemon - what are my options" thread. With the usual caveat that you should rely on independent advice from CAB &/or Trading Standards, I'd say that having used it for a significant period, outright rejection will now be difficult or impossible. Pragmatically, your best option may be to accept the offered repair and sell it or trade it in immediately the warranty ends - whatever you lose now is likely to be less than you'll lose in the long run if you keep it.

The cynic in me is wondering if the dealer wants to hang on to it for as long as possible to reduce the time you'll be driving it before the warranty runs out.

Sorry not to be more positive, but from what's been posted so far, it would seem you've been unlucky and got a bad 'un.

The 1.1 Panda is otherwise generally a reliable and good value secondhand car.

jrkitching said:

Condolences to the OP.

This is basically another "I bought a secondhand lemon - what are my options" thread. With the usual caveat that you should rely on independent advice from CAB &/or Trading Standards, I'd say that having used it for a significant period, outright rejection will now be difficult or impossible. .

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@rick o,shea

This is not strictly true, for cars 3 months is a guidleine period for complete rejection but this is not a hard limit. If the dealer was made aware and has not told the owner not to drive it (and thus supplied a loan car if they did) the mileage is not an issue. I had done just under 1000 miles, all but 50 after notifiying the dealer of the problem, before formally rejecting the car. This case went to court, the mileage was mentioned but was not an problem and I won. What you must do is stop driving the car as soon as you formally reject it and demand a refund.
I'm glad you have supported my fears of hidden issues with specific knowledge of this engine.


Robert G8RPI.

g8rpi said:

This is not strictly true, for cars 3 months is a guidleine period for complete rejection but this is not a hard limit. If the dealer was made aware and has not told the owner not to drive it (and thus supplied a loan car if they did) the mileage is not an issue. I had done just under 1000 miles, all but 50 after notifiying the dealer of the problem, before formally rejecting the car. This case went to court, the mileage was mentioned but was not an problem and I won. What you must do is stop driving the car as soon as you formally reject it and demand a refund.

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I'd agree there are no hard & fast rules but the OP has put 4500 miles on this car already and as far as I am aware, is continuing to drive it.

You're quite correct in saying the OP must stop using the car immediately if they want to reject it. Even if successful, a rejection could easily take six months before the OP sees any money back and therefore they will either have to buy another car, or go without one. There's no way they're going to get a courtesy car whilst they're taking legal action.

To the OP: I'd agree wholeheartedly that this is a bad show on the part of the supplying dealer and personally I'd want my money back; certainly there's no way I'd be keeping the car, whatever the outcome of any repair. It's just too much of a risk. Publicity and persistence may yet get you the outcome you want.

jrkitching said:

?... Pragmatically, your best option may be to accept the offered repair and sell it or trade it in immediately the warranty ends - whatever you lose now is likely to be less than you'll lose in the long run if you keep it..

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This can be a difficult call, raising the age-old question:
How do you sell a car that you know will give the new owner serious trouble, even though the trouble is at the moment hidden?

It would be preferable, and poetic justice, to get the dealer to take the car back, even if the settlement is not all you would like.

Unfortunatly it won't stop the dealer selling it
The Dodge Journey (Fremont predecessor) KT08 GKA I had, and won my case with, is currently on sale (ebay item 201327963070) but still has a transmission fault that will cost about £3000 to fix properly. The dealer who has it, Branson Cars, is not the one I bought it from, Canfield Garage, but they seem even worse. Mind you maybe they did fix the transmission as they say it's 4X4 which was not even an option, then agin they say it has leather and it hasn't

Robert G8RPI.