Sweetsixteen said:

..TA.. he had in pieces was in his shop for a leaking head gasket...

Click to expand...

The two problems I had with the 1.1 engine - predecessor of the 1.2 - in my Cinquecento Sporting were a stripped timing belt - TA has chain-driven exhaust valves and computer/hydraulically-operated inlets - and two head gaskets - fixed permanently by a mechanic in Italy who had a better spec item which lasted for years.

babbo_umbro said:

We ... came round the coast at Menton and drove past Genoa - not great with numerous murky and narrow tunnels. It's habit really, as we've done the trip twice a year for nearly thirty years and I might try the Mont Cenis route for a change.

Click to expand...

Hate Genoa, for the same reason as you. Fine if you're a local, but towing and trying to find the right ship in the docks was hell for someone who doesn't know the city. When we go to our old home island, Gozo, we now either get a ship at Livorno or - preferably - drive down to Reggio, then across Sicily to Pozzallo, then fast ferry. Recommend Col du Mont Cenis if you're not in a hurry.

babbo_umbro said:

Mrs b_u had a MJ, I've had a 100HP, she now has a 1.2 and I have a 4x4 TA - so we've tried all the engines. As we live in Devon and Umbria we do very little driving in heavy traffic. Mpgs are/were 59, 39, 49 and 39 in the same order. The MJ was OK but it eat front tyres - you could feel all that weight on the front end - and I felt you had to row it along with the gear lever - even the MJ's relatively wide rev range for a diesel didn't compensate. You'd have to do a lot of miles to justify the extra cost of a diesel. The 100HP was surprisingly flexible and great fun, though you had to rev it to really enjoy the extra grunt. The 1.2 is smooth and flexible, very drivable in all conditions, quite nippy for what it is but a bit dull and slow up Alps. The TA's done 26000 miles in just under two years, it has character and accelerates as quickly as the 100HP between 20 and 90 mph, so a non-4x4 would be a bit quicker. Don't agree with your tame mechanic's comments - if the TA was building a reputation for unreliability this forum would be full of it - it works quite hard but it never seems bothered. There are areas of the MJ - or any diesel - where the stresses are much higher than in any petrol engine.

Click to expand...

59mpg from the Multijet is pretty poor. I usually get mid to late 60s in mine.

So did I, Wee Smurf - until lately. The consumption increased to no more than 60 on a long run, and it became sluggish, but I could find nothing wrong.

Eventually tracked down - I suspect - to a sticking front caliper, causing brakes to bind. At least, one front wheel gets VERY hot, so tomorrow I'm going to strip it - then I'll know the worst.

Sweetsixteen said:

So did I, Wee Smurf - until lately. The consumption increased to no more than 60 on a long run, and it became sluggish, but I could find nothing wrong.

Eventually tracked down - I suspect - to a sticking front caliper, causing brakes to bind. At least, one front wheel gets VERY hot, so tomorrow I'm going to strip it - then I'll know the worst.

Click to expand...

That must whiff a bit!

If you do the maths properly, I reckon that (increasingly) diesel is more expensive than petrol, when you take all costs into account. Yes, diesel MPG is going to be way higher than a petrol engine in the same car, but diesel fuel costs slightly more at the pumps, the diesel car costs quite a bit more to buy, routine maintenance costs more; and most significantly, modern diesels will at some point require EGR replacement, as well as other things like MAP sensors etc. Then there's the matter of DPFs. In the round, the fuel costs are fairly insignificant compared with the maintenance costs associated with running a modern diesel.

A year ago I traded my Panda MJ against a nearly new Skoda Citigo, mainly because my back told me to get a car with better seats, but the routine maintenance bill on a small diesel with over 100k on the clock was getting tiresome. Yes, it was fun to see 80mpg+ from the Panda, and it was a hoot to drive around town, but the Citigo (which cannot really better 50mpg on a gentle run) has required nothing other than one £100 service.

I still miss my Panda, though, and if the new one had decent seats, I would have bought one of those instead of the Skoda.

Out of couriosity what are the higher maintenance costs of a diesel compared to a petrol ?

The service intervals are the same for petrol and diesel Pandas, but diesel engines do need diesel fuel filter replacement at certain intervals, and have very specific oil requirements, for starters. A local Fiat/Alfa specialist here told me that using anything other than the Fiat specified engine oil is likely to cause the timing chain to fail, adding further to the diesel's life costs. A petrol Panda's timing belt is a great deal cheaper to replace.

But, the real killers are the diesel emissions control stuff - EGR and (where applicable DPF). An EGR for a Panda MJ costs from £120, but the labour involved in fitting it is considerable, making for a very hefty garage bill (this I know, having had the EGR fail in my Panda). The labour bill is, of course, amplified by the lack of space at the back of the engine, making a relatively straightforward procedure rather long-winded. A modern diesel car will, at some point, require the EGR to be either cleaned or replaced. Do the maths and the diesel car's fuel economy only starts to make sense against these costs if you do massive annual mileage.

There's no way that a petrol car will match its diesel equivalent for fuel economy, nor typically its performance, but nowadays it pays to be very analytical about all running costs, of which fuel is not necessarily the most significant. For some, the cost balance might tip in favour of diesel, of course, but for me I concluded (reluctantly) that petrol is way cheaper in the round.

And that's before we start discussing how future governments are going to penalise diesels in urban environments. I don't think it will be long before diesels other than Euro6 compliant will not be able to drive into central London.

Guess I've been lucky just turned 180000 miles yesterday egr untouched oil changed every 12000 miles always fully synthetic waste gate tweaked every time I've changed oil . Fuel filter changed once at around 125000 Never needs oil topping up between services , all heater plugs replaced once with non fiat supplied parts .when I start her up we go 30miles , average mileage says 62 mpg the average speed on dash says 52 mph the mpg is actually 56 mpg if I work it out accurately ,I'm curious what the average speed is for some one doing 65mpg

Now I have changed water pump twice and the cam chain it's had one front shock and 2rear shocks (was only the top bushes at the rear I could have just changed the bushes but I decided not worth the hassle 2front drop link arms and one track rod end . Has original rear shoes and slave cylinders and one set front discs and pads at 70000 ish , 2front wish bones but probably only needed one , original exhaust even though rear silencer has been delaminating since year two
Best car I've ever owned, I also tow a kit car with her around 900kg no problem

Don't believe the (virtual) computer mpg, work it out in reality. The computer is always inaccuratly excessive.

notsmartcars said:

Guess I've been lucky just turned 180000 miles yesterday egr untouched oil changed every 12000 miles always fully synthetic waste gate tweaked every time I've changed oil . Fuel filter changed once at around 125000 Never needs oil topping up between services , all heater plugs replaced once with non fiat supplied parts .when I start her up we go 30miles , average mileage says 62 mpg the average speed on dash says 52 mph the mpg is actually 56 mpg if I work it out accurately ,I'm curious what the average speed is for some one doing 65mpg

Now I have changed water pump twice and the cam chain it's had one front shock and 2rear shocks (was only the top bushes at the rear I could have just changed the bushes but I decided not worth the hassle 2front drop link arms and one track rod end . Has original rear shoes and slave cylinders and one set front discs and pads at 70000 ish , 2front wish bones but probably only needed one , original exhaust even though rear silencer has been delaminating since year two
Best car I've ever owned, I also tow a kit car with her around 900kg no problem

Click to expand...

My Panda MJ has towed :

An Octavia estate out of a ditch
An Octavia uphill ( quarter mile 1 in 8?From slow start , no 'run' at it .)
An Audi A3 5 door on motorway at 40-50 mph for 10-12miles at 45mpg !!!

( and it has the random slipping clutch 'issue' many share)

160k miles .68mpg like clockwork . LOVE IT !

cdmoran said:

Don't believe the (virtual) computer mpg, work it out in reality. The computer is always inaccuratly excessive.

Click to expand...

Strangely, I've found Italian cars' trip computer thingy to be pessimistic.

Typically my MJ shows about 55mpg but actually returns 57-59.

A Giulietta 2.0 MJ I hired a couple of years ago showed 52 but actually did 54.

I hired a Golf Bulemotion 1.6D and drove from Mancland to Aberystwith and back overnight fairly briskly. Trip computer - 64mpg; actual on fill up - 54, the same as the Giulietta.

Had a new Focus 1.6 diesel earlier this year and got 56mpg, despite the trip computer telling me I was doing 60 to the gallon.

The problem with my Panda MJ is that I'm over a third of the way to work before it reaches operating temperature, where the fuel consumption should be getting better, but on our frequent 120 mile runs to Middlesbrough the trip computer readout gradually climbs towards 65mpg before it starts to drop back to high 50s as we get closer to the North East, and it doesn't get better on the way back. The best figures I get tend to be on the M6, which, is coincidentally flatter than the M62 and A1(M).

With lower power and torque figures than Puntos or later Panda MJs, maybe that's an answer when climbing some hills on a journey.

I bought the MJ new in 2005 as it was also the most powerful Panda at that time as well as the most economical. I've heard all the Pandas described as having "entertaining handling", yet I find it anything but; perhaps that's down to the extra weight over the nose.

It's also been my own most reliable car, being on its 2nd set of rear shoes, 3rd set of front pads, 2nd pair of discs (my own fault for letting the pads run down to the rivets), original exhaust, original clutch, one front shock, one pair of front anti-roll bar drop links and only 2nd battery. Oh, and one side repeater bulb due to it losing its colour.

I also had the cam chain replaced at about 80,000 miles and have replaced the EGR valve once.

When I bought it in its first week on sale it only cost about £7,000 and I decided I would keep it until one morning I'd come out of the house to find a pile of oxide on the road. I've toyed with the idea of changing it but, it's a bit like trading your old dog in for a new one.....until you look in his eyes, and you just can't.

The Beard said:

Strangely, I've found Italian cars' trip computer thingy to be pessimistic.

Typically my MJ shows about 55mpg but actually returns 57-59.

A Giulietta 2.0 MJ I hired a couple of years ago showed 52 but actually did 54.

I hired a Golf Bulemotion 1.6D and drove from Mancland to Aberystwith and back overnight fairly briskly. Trip computer - 64mpg; actual on fill up - 54, the same as the Giulietta.

Had a new Focus 1.6 diesel earlier this year and got 56mpg, despite the trip computer telling me I was doing 60 to the gallon.

The problem with my Panda MJ is that I'm over a third of the way to work before it reaches operating temperature, where the fuel consumption should be getting better, but on our frequent 120 mile runs to Middlesbrough the trip computer readout gradually climbs towards 65mpg before it starts to drop back to high 50s as we get closer to the North East, and it doesn't get better on the way back. The best figures I get tend to be on the M6, which, is coincidentally flatter than the M62 and A1(M).

With lower power and torque figures than Puntos or later Panda MJs, maybe that's an answer when climbing some hills on a journey.

I bought the MJ new in 2005 as it was also the most powerful Panda at that time as well as the most economical. I've heard all the Pandas described as having "entertaining handling", yet I find it anything but; perhaps that's down to the extra weight over the nose.

It's also been my own most reliable car, being on its 2nd set of rear shoes, 3rd set of front pads, 2nd pair of discs (my own fault for letting the pads run down to the rivets), original exhaust, original clutch, one front shock, one pair of front anti-roll bar drop links and only 2nd battery. Oh, and one side repeater bulb due to it losing its colour.

I also had the cam chain replaced at about 80,000 miles and have replaced the EGR valve once.

When I bought it in its first week on sale it only cost about £7,000 and I decided I would keep it until one morning I'd come out of the house to find a pile of oxide on the road. I've toyed with the idea of changing it but, it's a bit like trading your old dog in for a new one.....until you look in his eyes, and you just can't.

Click to expand...

Lol, strangely I chose my Multijet Panda for similar reasons to you. Most powerful and economical.

I ordered mine in the first week of the engine coming available. I paid more as I went for every option I could think of (as long as it wasn't aircon), but I was disallowed the electric wing mirrors as a result. I however made the mistake of naming my Panda so he's part of the family now and we can't part company. Well not after what he cost me last year anyhow!

I have found that I get the best mpg by staying at or below 60. I've been getting around 65 mpg since the rebuild after the hiccups.

What were the hiccups and why the rebuild?

cdmoran said:

What were the hiccups and why the rebuild?

Click to expand...

The hiccups were due to some poor workmanship of a Fiat-Alfa 'Specialist' who changed the timing chain for me in January 2013. Things went wrong at possibly the worst time they could (the Saturday afternoon between Christmas and the New Year 2013). Basically I had driven 20 miles or so to visit my dad. I parked up and brought the child in to see him. When I got back in to go and turned the key, there wasn't such a good engine noise with engine management light on and not wanting to annoy my dad as my mum had just gone into a home, I drove downhill into the town and pulled over to phone the 'specialist' who incidentally lived in the same town as my dad. He told me he would be closed till January 6 and I'd have to wait or try somewhere else. I turned the engine off and sat a while and tried again. Light went out but engine was loud like it was running on 3 cylinders. I decided that it must be something service related like a filter not being quite right as I had had the car serviced just a week or so earlier. I decided to drive home and park up. I posted on here in the hope for suggestions but knew that I just needed to get the car seen to. On the Monday morning, I decided to call one of the men in the Italian Motor Club and by chance he was up in Donnelly's at Mallusk so I said that I'd be up in 15 and to wait there. Donnelly's I must say were very good to me. They kept me up to date with everything they were doing. They ordered parts in to try them out but if they made no improvement removed them and put the old parts back. They gave me a 500 to use till they had my Panda sorted. I gave them a history of the car. Basically it had been Fiat serviced until the dealership I bought the car from lost the franchise and the 'specialist' was the head mechanic who had set up on his own so basically it was the same service (or so I thought). I got a stamp in my service book still at each service. Donnelly's knew him and didn't see any problem with the service history as they thought everything would have been done right. They tried all the easy cheaper things first before telling me that they would need to start dismantling the car to find the problem. They put one mechanic to work on my car so that nothing would be missed by passing between mechanics. Finally the fault was found to be a failure of the timing chain guides. I phoned the specialist to let him know what had happened and got a 'why didn't you bring it back to me?' and a 'I'd have needed to see that for myself' and a 'there's nothing that I can do about that'. So he washed his hands of it. I paid the bill and went on my way. The next day the clutch failed (bad luck) so back to Donnelly's again. Another week and I got the car back. That was a Tuesday and then on the Saturday I went to a book launch some 40 miles away. About a third of the way home, I felt that something wasn't quite right with one of wheels. I thought it was a bearing and knew that there was a tyre dealer just a few miles on up the road, so I decided to stop there. When I went to come off the carriageway to turn to go there, I made the realisation that I had no brakes. When the AA man opened the rear drum, bits of the liner fell onto the road. I was too angry to speak to the specialist about that! Having got that sorted, it was back to Donnelly's for a health check. That lightened me of another £500 worth of problems (bearing in mind that the car had just been serviced).

After all that, the mpg is some 10 mpg better than before. So that's what I mean by 'the hiccups' - I'm sure he would have been binned by others but I ended up spending £2K on him, somewhat more than he was worth. And to be honest, I can't even blame the car for the problems I encountered. It was a case that I thought I was doing the right thing for my car and that it was being well looked after. Unfortunately for me, that wasn't the case and I learned the hard way. I think that I worry the staff in Donnelly's anytime they see the 'Yellow Peril' arriving. They have admitted that they've never had another Panda with so many miles! We're coming up on 103K miles now despite all. I think I'm a very dedicated Panda owner! Lol. Now that Dez is 10, the paintwork has faded somewhat and is showing its age. I've tried various products on it, but I've been told that with it being such a light colour that there's not enough pigment to bring it back. I'm considering a respray and possibly a snazzy new radio. I've some training to deliver in the coming months and I'm considering using any profits from my travel expenses to go towards that.

That is some bad luck...even for a Panda owner ?. How old is it? Ive been trying to decide between TwinAir and Multijet for when I replace my Climbing. I think when things do go wrong with diesels they are even more expensive to fix; but then I do a lot of long runs. Hope your Panda serves you well from now on.

Dez was 10 in May.

Let's hope Dez gives you another 10 years of service!

I'm certainly hoping for some better luck with him!