I'm seeking advice regarding my 1.3 MJ 2006.
Ok, so I've had a good trawl through the Panda forum and found several posts reporting loss of power under hard acceleration, hitting 3,000 revs or so and it seems to go into 'limp' mode. I have this problem but it only occurs in 4th and 5th gears. I can rev freely right through the range in 1st, 2nd and 3rd but if I attempt to go hard through 4th it seems to lurch around 3k revs and won't advance. It also happens if I'm cruising in 5th and accelerate hard.
I've read other posts suggesting turbo wastegate actuator seized or egr stuck open but surely this would affect all gears and not just 4th and 5th???

Please help as in all other respects it's a cracking little car but I'm coming to the end of my tether with it.

By the way, I've had code reader on it and it does say something about turbo overboost. It also comes up with MAF and MAP sensor faults but I have replaced both of these units.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Your wastegate on the turbo is seized, probably due to exhaust soot building up inside.

The wastegate should open to regulate boost so it prevents overboost.
The more/faster the exhaust gas the engine produces (due to the engine working hard), the faster it spins the turbo.
So on low rpm the wastegate is closed, flat out it's open so some exhaust gas bypasses the turbo vanes.

When the wastegate fails to open, at low rpm/engine load it isn't a problem as it's meant to be closed, but as soon as you pass the rpm/load when it should open, it'll detect too much inlet air pressure (MAP sensor) and trip limp, hence the possibility of MAP fault codes.

They can also screw up the MAF sensor reading as the turbo will pull in so much air the ECU wouldn't normally expect to see.
The extra intake air will cool off the MAF's hot wire far below expected tolerance and throw MAF fault codes.

Search for "seized wastegate", but try using Corsa CDTI or 1.3 CDTI, as the Corsa 1.3 CDTI is the Fiat 1.3 Multijet as fitted to the Panda.
You might find a Youtube guide to freeing it off.

Wouldn't it "limp" in 1st, 2nd and 3rd gear if the wastegate was seized though? Or does the pressure build through the gears?

I've found a wastegate on fleabay for £50. Are they easy to fit?? I'm what I'd call an average+ with the spanners.

Ok, I've found some advice on freeing up the wastegate so I'm going to give that a go. I realise having read this that buying a new actuator won't actually free the wastegate so I'm shelving that. So i'll get underneath with some release spray, a pry bar and some brute strength and see how I get on.

Thanks for your response Goudron, I will report back with my progress.

redjon72 said:

Ok, I've found some advice on freeing up the wastegate so I'm going to give that a go. I realise having read this that buying a new actuator won't actually free the wastegate so I'm shelving that. So i'll get underneath with some release spray, a pry bar and some brute strength and see how I get on.

Thanks for your response Goudron, I will report back with my progress.

Click to expand...

plusgas would be my 1st choice..,
maybe brake cleaner once you've got some movement..??

take advice on any seals or "fussy" materials though

taking pics ( for a GUIDE) would be great

have fun..,
Charlie

... And wear gloves. Saves skinned knuckles when you slip - as you surely will!
Plus earplugs for your neighbours?

It's not as common for the actuator to fail as it is for the wastegate to seize. (though if you had a Mondeo, I'd say it was the other way around)

The actuator is a diaphragm that works on vacuum (in this case) and it's rare the seal inside to fail to hold a vacuum, but it can happen.
The same can be said for a cracked or split vacuum pipe to the actuator, which would give the same results and perhaps a little more common on older cars due to the materials perishing.


As for the it tripping limp in higher gears, that's due to the fact the ECU will expect a high MAP signal in lower gears, it knows and wants the turbo to spin up to increase torque in lower gears, but not as much in higher gears, hence it trips around 3000 rpm in 4th/5th, yet runs perfect in 1st, 2nd and 3rd.

Freeing off the wastegate is the cure, but it will no doubt carbon up again in the future, it's just one of the curses of modern diesels, they just aren't as robust as they used to be.
The strive to met emission regs have knobbled them a little too much.

Just out of interest, is there anything you can do to prevent or reduce it seizing? From the thread, a run at 3,000 rpm plus for a while each week could help?

agavins said:

Just out of interest, is there anything you can do to prevent or reduce it seizing? From the thread, a run at 3,000 rpm plus for a while each week could help?

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Don't you think it's a bit daft to buy a diesel for its economy, then have to belt it at full throttle every few days to stop the MAF, EGR, DPF etc from giving trouble? I thought these fancy bits were supposed to help with clean, economical engines. Makes you wonder if they're worth it.
To answer your question - yes, an Italian tune up every few days will help keep the EGR free'd up.

Well, perhaps.
They jam because of the wastegate or in some models, the variable vanes get clogged.

The clogging agent isn't all just soot from combustion, there's oil in there too, some of it passes the rings when cold, some of it is a little unburnt diesel that may not have caught when cold, and some of it is engine oil vented via the crank breather which plumbs into the air intake trunking.
(you'd be amazed how much oily crank vapour is in the intake, just try cleaning out the intercooler!)

This crank breather system never used to be much of a problem a few years ago when diesel injection was swirled in the head and wasn't interupted too often, but since direct injection, common rails and computer controls it's become more of an issue.

On a modern common rail diesel (or a direct injection of a few years ago) on the over run, diesel is no longer injected and combustion as we understand it is vastly reduced, the engine just pumps air/exhaust gas rather than burn anything, so anything going into the chambers isn't getting fully burnt and comes out again into the turbo/exhaust.

Add to this the EGR valve recirculating what comes out of the combustion chambers (as it's meant to work under these over run conditions as the gas in it has little O2 so lowers the chamber temps even further, again less air, less burning of anything in there)

And all you've got is and oily mix going around and around until you put your foot on the pedal again, combustion restarts and you start producing soot that stickes to the oily ****e left behind.

If you've ever pulled a turbo or EGR valve apart, you find this incredible gunk, a mix of soot and oil that'll stain your hands for weeks.

In the EGR valve it stays pretty gunky, almost like puss as it doesn't quite bake on due to the fact the exhaust gas has cooled (or been cooled) before it reached the valve, this stuff just tends to block the passage way.

In the exhaust side of the turbo it's very hot and bakes on and causes things to jam as there's just not enough force in the vacuum actuator to move it.

To help things out with the crank breather it is possible to catch the oil.
Baffled tanks and filters are available to separate the oil.
Some are quite big and designed for buses and heavy plant, but there are ones available for cars.
Here one for a VW TDI as they breath really heavily, but I modded and ran one on my old X Type diesel for 140k and the EGR and turbo never gave me a problem.
http://www.allardaluminiumproducts....lf-seat-skoda-audi-tdi-vag-group-engines.html

Don't confuse this with the "ebay special" tanks that are neither baffled or have big enough ports to cope with flow.

Another thing to help would be to manually work the arm every now and then to keep it free.

It's often wrote you can flog the car, I guess this will heat the exhaust side of the turbo enough to effect the crude and perhaps burn off some it off, but you'd want to make sure the EGR valve wasn't going to cut in on you until the turbo was almost glowing!
You'd need a decent, long flog up a fast bit of motorway (like up the Pennines on the M62!)

I was told by one of the service team at my local dealer that the magic number is 48 mph. At that speed, you will heat the engine and not overly cool it by air flow. Then when up to temperature, keep it going at that speed for 20 minutes. So perhaps not a motorway for that.

Touch wood I haven't had any trouble with mine, but I get my car up to temperature on almost every journey I do and I think that could be a factor with some of those who have experienced problems.

Or blank off the Egr. That begins to turn your modern diesel back in time, when if ever a diesel stopped it was always due to fuel. Nothing else ever seemed to stop 'em.
While you're at it, cut out the Cat, remove the dpf, discard the silencer (the modern turbo masks most of the exhaust noise anyway), get it all remapped to stop the ecu throwing a hissyfit, and you'll end up with a bug-free diesel that will outlast the car!
Only joking - Guess I'm just an old-fashioned heretic.

Mmm ok, all interesting stuff. I run about 2 hours a day at 50 miles per hour, so I *hope* that it will help keep it reasonably free flowing.

Having said that, I blanked the EGR on our Navara when we had it - nice easy job and no re-programming to be done! I did have a look around on the forum and I seem to remember needing to get a blanking plate with 2-3 holes?

Is there any pictorial guide on how/where to install? Or if anyone could take a photo and ring the right section to slot the plate into? Any advise on fitting would be gratefully received too!

Just by way of an update, my problem is solved! Thanks Goudron, you were spot on.
Got underneath and tried to move the wastegate actuator arm with a long screw driver, then a long pry bar and eventually ended up with 3/4 crowbar which did the job! Couldn't believe how hard seized in it was.
So, went out for a drive after freeing the wastegate and it's like a new car! Revs through 4th and 5th without any problems.
Many thanks everyone who offered advice.

I noticed someone mentioned blanking off the egr valve. From what I can see, it is a bit of sod to get at. It's underneath the fuel rail on the back of the cylinder head. I bought a blanking plate with the intentions of getting it done but it's too big a job for me (unless anyone knows a way of getting at it without taking the fuel rail etc out?).

Been thinking about getting a chip tune box for it, anyone any experience of these? Do they work well, do they do any damage to anything expensive?

There's a problem with later cars and blanking their EGR's.

EU emission (euro 5 methinks) regs require that the emissions from the engine are monitored and, when faulty are flagged up as a problem by the ECU.

So manufacturers had to link in EGR operation to the powertrain control, they did this by introducing a "flow meter" within the valves.
Blank one of these and it will put the EML on again!

The Mondeo/Xtype Jag was good examples of this.
Three different valves cover their production run (not counting the Autos, which had another valve)
Euro 4 was just a vacuum operated valve without any wiring and could be blanked without problem.

Early Euro 5's were similar vacuum, but wires appeared on it for the flow meter and caused problems with blanks (you needed to put a 6 to 8mm hole in the plate.

Later Euro 5's are motor driven and had all sorts of electronic gubbins inside (that lasted minutes)

By me writing this, you can tell what sort the Panda Multijet has??

BTW, good news on the actuator, just check it every 6 months to see if it's still free.

I just seen your bit about one of those tuning boxes.
I wouldn't bother, they con the PCM into fueling past what the injectors are designed for and nearly always lead to premature injector failure.
The increases gained will also give your clutch and gearbox a rough old time too, both can handle a certain amount of torque and I'll bet when fitted to the Multijet, they are already close to the limit (as with the Corsa CDTi 1.3's)

Clutch will NOT take any more torque ! Mine has been slipping now lots for a week or two ...This after intermittent slipping for two years .Still reckon it will last a fair bit longer though !

I seem to remember it was fairly easy to determine what a Vauxhall clutch and gearbox could handle as their gearbox codes included a hint to the torque they were rated at.
Eg: M17 could cope with upto 170nm

I'm guessing that's no help with a Panda, but I seem to recall their torque is a fairly reasonable 190nm, but these little diesels don't seem to have extra strong gearboxes and clutches specifically designed for diesels to cope with the all torque they give, at best they are regeared versions of 'boxes fitted to petrols and they tend to be already near the limit.

It seems the common way around the problem for manufacturers
is the dual mass flywheel that (should) cushion the torque between the crank and gearbox, but these have their own problems as their working life seems very limited compared to a solid flywheel

So as far as the EGR is concerned it's replace/repair or clean rather than blank off?
I had the MIL light come back on last night with an EGR fault. All the other MAF and MAP errors etc have cleared and stayed clear. Is it worth trying some of that EGR cleaner spray? Or do you think it is some of the gubbins inside that are a bit tired?

It's probably blocked solid.

What was the code exactly.
Insufficent EGR flow?

It said something along those lines. However..... I've just done another read and I now have :-
p0101 "mass or volume air flow 'A' circuit range performance"