Another small chapter, I am still working on this little puppy, without success i might add. Over the weekend I changed to high pressure fuel pump, unfortunately hat did not work either. So far I have changed the High pressure regulator, fuel rail pressure sensor and the high pressure pump. Now the interesting thing is that MES is only showing P0090, high pressure regulator, as an issue, and I cannot delete it. Now the EML have never illuminated with a problem while we have had the car. I have come to the conclusion that the ECU is at fault, discussions with various firms indicate that they can be an issue due to water ingress. So I am going to bite the bullet and spend £40.00 or so getting it checked.
Watch this space.

There's more to P0190 and P0090, it's just whatever "tool" you are using to scan the ECU isn't designed to retrieve it.
For instance, P0090 can mean any of these:
P0090 09 - Fuel pressure too high
P0090 0A - Fuel pressure to low
P0090 5B - Fuel pressure too low
and so is true of P0190.

I would hazard a guess you have too low a pressure in the rail for the injectors too fire rather than a problem with a sensor, though a read up (on the 'net) of rail sensor resistance may help test it with a digital meter.

There could be many reasons for low rail pressure, off hand it's hard to advise and common rail diesels aren't that DIY friendly (which is why my CR finally went), but working through a few things from one end might help.

Fuel pick up.
Is the pump in the tank picking up fuel?

Fuel Filter.
Is it blocked or air locked?

Cracking open a union to a injector (usually the one furthest from the pump), standing well back, then a few short cranks should see fuel appear from that pipe. (this will also help clear air lock in the rail)

I'm not overly familiar with the rail, but usually there is a pressure reilef system/valve built into one end of the rail, if this has failed, fuel will just spill out back to the tank/pump leaving no rail pressure what so ever.

Cranking speed is important with a common rail, too low and the engine won't turn fast enough to spin the HP pump leading to low rail pressure and a rough idle or a no start.
Typically for most CR's, around 200/250 bar is generated at crank, but once running can reach 2000 bar.
Can your diagnostic tool read the rail pressure at crank?

Battery and starter motor need to be able to spin up the engine well, usually handbooks state the need to depress the clutch to help take some weight off the starter.
A quick test is to boost from a running car.

Leaks before or after or in the HP pump can draw in air (not just leak fuel out).
The pump will struggle to generate pressure in the rail if it's filling with air and the injector won't fire.

Injectors "leak off or spill" excess fuel.
That means each injector will return/spill unused fuel via a bypass and small (rubber) hose attached to each to the pump/filter/tank depending on engine/fuel temps.
Worn injectors will often return far too much or bypass the injector completely.

This in effect lowers the rail pressure as the pump just can't keep up with all the fuel spilling back to the pump/filter/tank.
If you are sure there's fuel in the rail and it's not air locking due to a air leak, a leak off test may be required.

This replaces the route of the leaked off fuel so each injector's return can be measured in individual containers.
Each injector should return very little, if any under cranking and once running each should return an even amount (around 10% difference between all four is ok)

Goudrons said:

Leaks before or after or in the HP pump can draw in air (not just leak fuel out).
The pump will struggle to generate pressure in the rail if it's filling with air and the injector won't fire.

)

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Picking up on this one aspect - I had months of pain with a Merc diesel because it was sucking in air before the HP pump. Grease around every joint eventually isolated it, but it was frustratingly hard to pinpoint.
I am not endorsing this as your problem, because I'm not convinced yet that it's even mechanical, but greasing all the fuel joints will help eliminate at least this one possibility.

With a Multijet myself, I am very interested in how this headache turns out,

interesting thoughts, I am using MES and it does not specify whether or not the pressure is high or low, I also suspect low pressure, I have changed the High Pressure Pump on the off chance that it has failed, but still it refused to start. Fuel is being transported from the tank to the filter and then on to the HPP, checked that and replaced the filter as well. Battery is fine but I have three to go at and they all crank at a good speed. It might be worth saying that the car just stopped while my daughter was driving home, up until then it had been going OK. The only thing she did was put fuel in it just before it flaked out. Today I bought some fuel from an Esso garage and emptied the filter out and had another attempt at starting, you can tell I am grasping at straws now. That did not work either.
I have had a meter on all the connections checking for voltage, continuity, and resistance, all seemed OK, although one of the numbers on the High Pressure Regulator seemed high, need to recheck it. I am at a loss now, several firms I have spoken to have suggested that the ECU is prone to water ingress.
The quest continues.

Cranksensor (and wiring) Ok?

gr J

You are sure she hasn't put petrol in running rough after a top up is wrong fuel symptoms you may be getting previous faults mixed up with wrong fuel. Whats the fuel cap smell of. Fresh fuel in the filter would not be in the filter long enough to start the engine Only removing all the fuel from tank and lines would be the cure

No, certain its diesel fuel she put in, I was with her at the time. Fuel filter, hmm, I was told that it would probably be enough to get down to the HPP and injectors.

See if you can log the rail pressure when cranking with your diagnostic tool.
See what it reaches.
It'll more than likely report it in Kpa.
So remember one kilopascal = 0.01 bar, so you are looking for around 20,000kpa give or take a few.

If it's reporting 0, then it's the sensor or the ECU isn't getting it's signal.
If it's reading low, yet you are sure the low pressure side is ok, then the problem is post pump.

Or, as A3jeroen points out, it might not be timing the injection properly due to a crank or cam sensor, again logging them with your tool should show these up.

Goudrons said:

See if you can log the rail pressure when cranking with your diagnostic tool.
See what it reaches.
It'll more than likely report it in Kpa.
So remember one kilopascal = 0.01 bar, so you are looking for around 20,000kpa give or take a few.

If it's reporting 0, then it's the sensor or the ECU isn't getting it's signal.
If it's reading low, yet you are sure the low pressure side is ok, then the problem is post pump.

Or, as A3jeroen points out, it might not be timing the injection properly due to a crank or cam sensor, again logging them with your tool should show these up.

Click to expand...

I have a feeling I have already tried this, but I will give it a go tomorrow, the value is reported in bar. I believe the cam sensor is ok as the Rev counter is working, I have not checked the values on these, again I will have a crack tomorrow, however in my minds eye, it's an ECU fault.

The amount of fuel in the filter/water separator is sufficient to run the Panda Multijet for several miles, so it is certainly sufficient to reach the injectors and fire the engine if all else is working normally.

Sweetsixteen said:

The amount of fuel in the filter/water separator is sufficient to run the Panda Multijet for several miles, so it is certainly sufficient to reach the injectors and fire the engine if all else is working normally.

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That was my thought.
It's very frustrating and I've just watched the program about diesel cars, I have just bought my first diesel, apart from my daughters Panda.

Think you may have miss under stood what I meant about filter I was thinking of a fuel diesel/petrol mix ... Now if your car ran out fuel the filter would still be still be 90% full because the feed out of it is at the top not the bottom. Now remember fuel is always being returned to the tank from the filter to remove air pushed by the pump at the rear of car ...so if you filled the filter as full as possible before fitting (probably 70% full) the minute you turned the key the pump would push fuel from the tank topping the filter up and returning diesel back to the tank .. This is not a problem at all unless you had contaminated fuel which would affect the fuel to the high pressure pump,straight away.

OK, the saga continues, today I decided to have one last check up before committing to an ECU repair, if needed. I checked the fuel pressure, strangely before I turned the key MES reported -100 bar but whilst cranking it shot up to 1900? Trouble is the numbers changed. I disconnected one of the injector feed pipe and there was fuel present and it flowed, i expected it to come out at great pressure but it just seemed to flow. I then decided to check the numbers on the fuel regulator and found that one of the connections had no value. Now at this point I had to reboot my laptop and from that moment on I could not get it to talk to the ECU. I have found a firm that will send me by exchange a replacement ECU to test the system. If it works I pay for it, if not, the problem is not the ECU and I send it back and it costs me £50.00.
I am now at the cross roads.

In response to The Beard's comment on the first page.
Yes the EGR valve is a sore issue. My Stilo refused to start today so called out the Austrian AA. Woman mechanic and she was pretty good and did every check possible and no faults registered. I pointed out that I had problems with the EGR previously and bingo that was that. I will now get it cleaned and blocked off.

Philjay51 said:

I disconnected one of the injector feed pipe and there was fuel present and it flowed, i expected it to come out at great pressure but it just seemed to flow.

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It won't gush out.
Because you've disconnected the union, the pump can't compensate for the hole in the system that would otherwise be sealed tight.
A bit like sticking your finger over a bicycle pump, pressure rises very quickly as it can't escape, remove your finger and it can't generate pressure no matter how fast you pump.

This is why air lock, leaks and injectors returning too much fuel is such a big problem for rail pressure, they run (and need) massive pressures, but as much as a pin prick leak will cause serious problems due to pressure drop off.

It won't gush out.
Because you've disconnected the union, the pump can't compensate for the hole in the system that would otherwise be sealed tight.
A bit like sticking your finger over a bicycle pump, pressure rises very quickly as it can't escape, remove your finger and it can't generate pressure no matter how fast you pump.

This is why air lock, leaks and injectors returning too much fuel is such a big problem for rail pressure, they run (and need) massive pressures, but as much as a pin prick leak will cause serious problems due to pressure drop off.

Yes I take your point.

Notsmartcars: again point taken, just grasping at straws.

I have not looked at the EGR, maybe worth a look, but I find it hard to believe that it would pack up like that. Today I ran a test on the EGR and I could hear something clicking away. Do you really think it's worth pulling apart?

EGR valves are a pain in the ass on lots of modern diesel cars. Get access to it and block it off.

You car will thank you for it !!!


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EGR-blank...arts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item1c347292a6

Well today I bit the bullet and sent my ECU off, the company will send me a "new" one, if it works, yippee if not I get my old one back with a handling charge.
As promised I will keep you appraised until I have figured out what the problem is.

Philjay51 said:

The only thing she did was put fuel in it just before it flaked out. Today I bought some fuel from an Esso garage and emptied the filter out and had another attempt at starting, you can tell I am grasping at straws now.

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I know this ground has already been covered, but it does seem a coincidence that the car was running fine up until fresh fuel was put in. Can't think why that would stop it running, unless the fuel was totally duff.
Many years ago, we suspected bad fuel on an old car, so we rigged up a gallon can straight to the pump with a flexipipe and tied the can to the top of the passenger door.
It gravity-fed, and we got the engine running this way. Probably that would not work with a Multijet, but I'm just thinking random thoughts here.