I look daily at 2 Forums, the Grande Punto and the Mk2 Panda and have for some time had the impression there are loads more problems posted on the GP Forum than there are on the Panda. So I did a quick comparison of the two.

The GP has 424 pages of posts over the period Sept 2005 to date.
The Panda has less than half (206 pages) over a longer period May 2003 to date. Additionally there seem far fewer “major problems” reported on the Panda like failed power steering, gearbox failures etc.

Why should this be?

Here in Cornwall I would say there far more Pandas on the road than there are GP’s. If that is typical of the rest of the UK then it can’t be the numbers that are doing it.

My understanding is that a lot of the mechanical gadgets (FIRE engines etc) are common on both models, so that doesn’t seem relevant.

Anybody got any ideas?

GP built in Italy,
Panda built in Poland?
I'm a bit worried about the new model Panda.

doctorchris said:

GP built in Italy,
Panda built in Poland?
I'm a bit worried about the new model Panda.

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Could be - plus many shared items, like the gearbox, are dealing with a heavier car in Punto.

I've always been abit puzzled (and annoyed) by this. The things i've thought of as possible reasons are:

*Grande Punto developed in partnership with Vauxhall when partnership was going sour - Panda purely Fiat (from memory)

*Grande Punto finds itself into the hands of the modding crew more than Pandas (performance enhancements that stretch it beyond its limits mechanically)

*Grande Punto components (sometimes shared with Panda) are naturally under more strain in Punto due to bigger, more powerful engines & heavier car.

*GP built in Italy at Melfi plant, which is meant to have a history of employee relations issues (strikes etc).

I don't necessarily think a car being built in Italy is the sole reason - the Bravo and Alfa MiTo (amongst others) are both Italian built & are solid offerings, if not quite as good as the Panda. I'd put some blame at lack of/poor QC at the factory (Melfi only builds Puntos) & the rest with bad sourcing of parts from component suppliers - either buying too cheaply or simply using Panda parts that are not sufficiently uprated for the bigger GP. This could be in-part a Vauxhall issue too - it's Corsa (developed with GP) isn't brilliant for quality either.

Curiously, the facelifted GP (Punto Evo) seems leagues ahead in terms of quality - maybe Fiat moving Panda production back to Italy has boosted other factories performance? Maybe theyve also been able to shake-off the Vauxhall influence & use more Bravo & MiTo components? The interior of the Evo certainly has a few Bravo & MiTo bits showing (Bravo door pulls, MiTo heater controls).

Unfortunately the Evo hasn't sold well so the main supermini offering that people think of from Fiat is the poorly-built Grande Punto. I generally see 2 GP's to every Panda & i think if it wern't for the very good-selling 500 being dependable, most people would've considered Fiat as a make to avoid, because the only well built & decent selling model prior to 500 was the Panda. Things are looking up now though i think.

fiat_freak said:

...... I would say there far more Pandas on the road than there are GP’s. If that is typical of the rest of the UK then it can’t be the numbers that are doing it........

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Less Pandas = less reported problems

Pandablues said:

Less Pandas = less reported problems

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yup,or perhaps GP owners are more likely to source advice on a forum.
just looking at the boards is never going to give a clear answer

I think is a fairly accurate statement regarding where they are built.
(worrying when you consider the new one will be built in Italy and strange when you consider the Polish workforce earn less than there counterparts in Italy)

The 03-12 Panda seems to have shrugged off the commonly perceived Fiat build quality issues.

I had a GP on a loan while our Panda went for servicing, the GP had the usually Fiat "charm" I remembered from my last 7 Fiats.
The seat back adjuster fell off in my hand before I left the car park, the lower right part of the dash fell off over the first bump and most of the switches seemed to have relocated themselves in the glove box!

I guess it did well to get as far as it did, what with 1200 miles on the clock.

In 5 years our Panda's had a rear shock bush.
In 6 my sister's had a couple of wishbones.
In 3 the mother in law's had a headlight blub.

Goudrons said:

I think is a fairly accurate statement regarding where they are built.
(worrying when you consider the new one will be built in Italy and strange when you consider the Polish workforce earn less than there counterparts in Italy)

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I think it is very inaccurate to judge the build quality of a car depending from where is built. I am pretty sure we can agree in Italy they have successfully built a few good cars in the past. I am glad they actually manage to still manufacture cars to a good standard, something we can't claim in the UK..

I also think it is very inaccurate to judge how good/reliable/well built by looking at the posts on this website. The Panda is a budget, economical supermini thats likely to attract elderly customers. The GP in the other hand is aimed at the younger generation, which are also more likely to post on FF when something goes wrong. Whereas perhaps most Panda owners are more likely to just take the car to the garage and pay the bill.
I am not saying the GP is better than the Panda or viceversa, but the way they have been compared dont make sense.

leonsdada said:

I think it is very inaccurate to judge the build quality of a car depending from where is built. I am pretty sure we can agree in Italy they have successfully built a few good cars in the past. I am glad they actually manage to still manufacture cars to a good standard, something we can't claim in the UK..

I also think it is very inaccurate to judge how good/reliable/well built by looking at the posts on this website. The Panda is a budget, economical supermini thats likely to attract elderly customers. The GP in the other hand is aimed at the younger generation, which are also more likely to post on FF when something goes wrong. Whereas perhaps most Panda owners are more likely to just take the car to the garage and pay the bill.
I am not saying the GP is better than the Panda or viceversa, but the way they have been compared dont make sense.

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You are right, up to a point, when you say it's not appropriate to judge the build quality of a car based on where it's built, except with the possible exception of Germany as members of VW Group, BMW and Mercedes have become by-words for quality and build integrity. Except that that may be more perceived than actual.

Mrs. Beard has an eleven year old Alfa 156 2.0 Veloce with 85,000 miles on the clock. The lack of "perceived" quality means she bought it last year for £2,500. There are quite a few Mercedes of that age around, but if you look at the "E"-Class you will see most either have, or are seriously developing rot behind the headlights, ahead of the front doors and even on the boot lid.

The 156 with 75,000 on the clock took 4 adults to Nice and back without missing a beat and on the way back, due to yours truly cocking about on the Route Napolean, plus a two hour extended lunch break meant we had 200 miles from somewhere between Gap and Lyons in the dark in 3 hours in order not to lose our hotel rooms in Reims. We made it and I avoided a bo*****ng from Mrs. Beard for doing 120 (mph) up the Autoroute because she'd fallen asleep.

My Panda MJ has been great but we hired a GP with the same engine in Italy last year which had 60,000 kms on the clock and Stop/Start and it all worked fine with only one small rattle. Not exactly a long term test but, better than nowt.

Oh, and less of the "elderly customers" yer cheeky young whippersnapper. That kind of talk is liable to get you a (metaphorical) punch on the snotter.

The Beard said:

Oh, and less of the "elderly customers" yer cheeky young whippersnapper. That kind of talk is liable to get you a (metaphorical) punch on the snotter.

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I really chuckled at this!

It's true that the Panda has attracted a few members of the population who, how can i say this, were born before 1960 However, it also attracts a fair number of people who are perfectly upto speed with the internet (including many who are over 50 years old), plus young Mums looking for a cheap 2nd car etc, and it still appears to suffer knowhere near the number of faults of the Grande Punto.

Also, the 500 shares many parts with the Panda, has sold very well (possibly in the UK more than the Panda & GP together) and appeals to a very young forum-familiar market, similar to the GP. It too has very few faults reported, just like the Panda.

Tbh i think the Panda (and 500) are simply more reliable & better built cars than the Grande Punto. Can't be sure why but pretty sure they just are. Hopefully the facelifted Punto & all-new one share the good qualities of the 500 & Panda rather than the bad qualities of the predecessor.

Same topic on GP page is getting to be fun too!

https://www.fiatforum.com/grande-punto/297439-gp-versus-panda.html?p=2994932

leonsdada said:

I think it is very inaccurate to judge the build quality of a car depending from where is built.

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You're likely to be alone in this thought.

The buying public pretty much backs this up and the manufacturers know it.

Did the Toyota Corolla become the worlds best selling car because of it's looks, performance or reliability?
Don't bother sending the answer on a post card, it's reliability.
No one heard of Japanese reliability?
Where did that phrase come from, did I just make that up?

You're unlikely to hear the phrase Italian reliability (along with cheap German, British built, Sporty American and so on), more common will be Italian design, style or flair.

Look what happened when someone last confused these two, the Alfa Arna.
The right idea, mix Japanese reliability and quality with Italian style, design and flair, but somehow someone got it the wrong way around, all the worst of Nissan AND Alfa on one car!
If it doesn't matter and my statement was untrue, why was this such a monumental failure, only 340 sold in the uk??

Did Lancia pull out of the UK because they got bored selling them here?
Or because they sold a load of Russian recycled baked bean tins and got their hands burnt and ruined their reputation in this country?

Shall we move on to Lada? Wartberg? Yugo? All been and gone from the UK, why?

What about the Suzuki Alto, for a lot less you could have a Maruti 800.
Ones built in Japan, the other India, but they are the same car.
I don't see many Maruti dealers around here?

Land Rover cornered the world 4x4 utilitarian market from the late 40's until the late 60's, then "Puff" everyone wanted a reliable, better built Toyota Land Cruiser, I know Aussies that cried when the series 3 came out, then they went to the Toyota dealer!

If you look at the GP's faults these are down to component failure not how the part was fitted at a particular factory.

Doors not opening, top strut mounts, springs snapping, breather hoses, software updates, steering columns are not down to individuals at the factory.

Pandas are not immune either, front window regulators/guides, lower arms, drop links, dash rattles etc

Any poor workmanship at the factory should be 'caught' at the pre-delivery inspection by the dealer.

Goudrons said:

You're likely to be alone in this thought.

The buying public pretty much backs this up and the manufacturers know it.

Did the Toyota Corolla become the worlds best selling car because of it's looks, performance or reliability?
Don't bother sending the answer on a post card, it's reliability.
No one heard of Japanese reliability?
Where did that phrase come from, did I just make that up?

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Yeah, but what does the buying public know

The country matters less than the company culture and how well that is implemented in the particular factory where your car gets built.

Honda and Nissan manage to get 'Japanese' quality in the UK where BL workers used to put nuts & bolts quite near to some car parts.

SWMBO's i20 is screwed together perfectly in Turkey, not a country celebrated for it's quality cars.

T14086 said:

Any poor workmanship at the factory should be 'caught' at the pre-delivery inspection by the dealer.

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Nooo! That's QA à la British Leyland 1975
These days poor workmanship should be caught while that car is still on the assembly line.

You do have a point there Geddes.

It could it be argued the "quality culture" may have come from the manufacturers home country, then followed it to the individual factories abroad with their management style.

I know that Kaizen, Senpai and Kohai are big things in certain factories in Derby and Sunderland, I can't imagine they are a Mackem thing, can you?
These didn't start as company culture, more social culture from that country that have been adopted over time to industry.

But if it wasn't there to start with or the culture wasn't lead purely for quality, but say style or design, what then?

This is where I think the Panda is a winner, the company culture of style, design and flair has followed the production to Poland, but the workforce there have added a certain amount of build quality.

Geddes said:

Nooo! That's QA à la British Leyland 1975
These days poor workmanship should be caught while that car is still on the assembly line.

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Which it is, very rarely is any extra work done in addition to the pre-delivery inspection, the most you will find is a missing aerial or handbook.

Some of the problems on forums can be made up just to annoy members, so they could not be true.

The only problem I have had is to replace the rear shocks on my 100HP, this was done under warranty. Driven over 10k miles (car has done 49k) in a year & not had any lights stay on, airbags go off, cut outs etc.

I had the tracking checked & put on a rolling road to make sure the engine is running smoothly. All running perfectly.

Originally Posted by Venters on the GP section
"The real difference is between the cars not owners. The MK3 Pandas area simpler, so have less to go wrong and are better built than the GPs too."


I suspect you are right and it's as simple as that Venters
Must admit I enjoy driving the GP best but the Panda is a truer reflection on basic Fiat small-car simplicity with the result of having fewer problems
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