Technical Koni damper experiment thread

[rturner]

Well, as per my previous post, a pair of rear Koni shock absorbers arrived today. My initial idea was to just buy Front & Rear's as well as Eibach springs, but after reading the various debates on here on this matter I decided to do it one step at a time, fitting the dampers to the standard springs before going for Eibachs.

Given that the 'pogo effect' seems worse at the rear, that's where I started. A pair of adjustable Koni Sport rears (part number 8040-1347Sport) cost £212 delivered from Larkspeed. They took 11 days to arrive which was a bit annoying (quoted time was 5-7 days), although Larkspeed do answer emails quickly, which is to their credit.

Fitting was a breeze, really one of the easiest jobs I've ever done on a car. I actually struggled to get the wheels off more than I did to change the shocks (they seem to sit very tight on the hubs!).

Here they are fitted on the car:

For anyone who is interested in step by step instructions, I've done a full write up on a blog that I set up.

The biggest problem I had is that the instructions were completely useless, with just unclear diagrams. Therefore I've not been able to adjust the dampers and just fitted them as they came out of the box. As such, I have no idea if they are set the same or even what level of damping that they are providing. As soon as I figure it out, I'll pop them off and set them to minimum damping and then build up from there.

I've only done about 15 miles of driving this evening since fitting them to try them out, so I don't think it is fair to give a full verdict on them yet.

However, my initial impression is that they have made a vast improvement. The back of the car feels much more settled than with the standard units and so far hasn't pogo'd at all. The pogoing is still apparent at the front of the car on certain road surfaces, but I think the thoughts about the back being the major issue are correct. If I was going to try and quantify it, I'd say that it feels like the issue is 75% resolved after changing the rears.

But like I say, I need to do some more miles and to work out how to adjust the rears to decide whether I am going to do the fronts as well or indeed the Eibach springs.

If anyone local to me who is considering getting these wants to try it out for themselves I'd be more than happy to take them for a bounce

Overall this is very encouraging so far. It really does look like Fiat cursed us with stiff springs on completely standard (or at least wholly inadequate) dampers. More to come after I've spent the weekend crashing over the pot-holed dirt tracks that Sheffield Council like to call roads

 

[Dan Friel]

Sounds great, real shame that you're not local..

 

[babbo_umbro]

Really interested in what you're doing - download

http://www.koni-na.com/pdf/tech.pdf

to see adjustment procedure.

 

[babbo_umbro]

Another thought - having looked at your photos, it may be possible to adjust them by just removing the lower bolt, though the fitting sounds so simple that it may not be worth it.

 

[rturner]

Really interested in what you're doing - download

http://www.koni-na.com/pdf/tech.pdf

to see adjustment procedure.

Excellent, thanks.

"Fully collapse the shock absorber, at the same time turning the
dust cap or piston rod slowly to the left (counterclockwise),
until it is felt that the cams of the adjusting nut engage in the
recesses of the foot valve assembly"

Quite why they couldn't have written that on the instruction sheet included, I do not know! It might well be too fiddly to try on do on the car. Certainly on the exhaust side, the back box restricts the amount of room for manoeuvre.

 

[babbo_umbro]

Konis adjusted in this way for decades until some types were given external adjustment. It's a pity that the rears for the 100HP can't be adjusted in the later, in situ, way; at least the fronts are externally adjustable.

 

[trackdayqueen]

Hmm, didn't realise that about the rears that they would not be adjustable externally, I thought they all were. I had a set on a MK1 MR2, but as that's McPherson struts allround, they were top adjustable.

Still, initial results seem promising, almost wish I'd done it to my car now, though it was brand new, so wasn't so keen to mess with the warranty.

 

[rturner]

I took them back off the car today to adjust. Quite simple now I've read those instructions! The manual says that there are 'approximately 2.5 turns' of adjustment. On the ones I have it's 2.25 turns. I did some experimenting to try and figure out what effect different settings have, and it appears that the adjustment is not linear, with the effect getting stronger at an increasing rate the further clockwise they are adjusted. Click here if interested in more detail.

I had initially fitted the dampers unadjusted from how they arrived, and it turned out one was set to the softest setting, the other at 0.5 turns. Following my experimenting I set them to 1.875 turns, re-fitted and went out for a test drive.

I would like to take this opportunity to suggest to anyone else who fits these Koni's NOT to set them to 1.875 turns! Another couple of miles and I think I would have needed a couple of weeks in traction. It's quite surprising the difference that a couple of turns have made.

Back to the drawing board tomorrow. On the bright side I reckon I can get them off, adjusted and back on in less than 30 mins now.

 

[AB100]

"Back to the drawing board tomorrow. On the bright side I reckon I can get them off, adjusted and back on in less than 30 mins now."

OK, just for our entertainment, please video yourself replacing them, followed then by being chased round the lawn by your lady. Treble the speed and put on Youtube.

Also, did you remember to do the 'glass of water' test as patented on Top Gear?

 

[trackdayqueen]

It's good that the Koni dampes are more than strong enough for the springs, so hopefully you should be able to find a comfortable setting. I've always run Koni's on the softer settings for the road, then used to firm them up when I got to the track. Best of both worlds that way.

 

[rturner]

Got them back off, adjusted and on again in 34 minutes. Disappointing that I didn't quite manage my under 30 minute target.

Now both set to 0.5 turns from zero and far, far better!

OK, just for our entertainment, please video yourself replacing them, followed then by being chased round the lawn by your lady. Treble the speed and put on Youtube.

Also, did you remember to do the 'glass of water' test as patented on Top Gear?

Sadly I didn't see your request before doing the work, so there is no video, but happily I did do a before and after with 'iPhone Seismometer'! Like the Top Gear Water Test but drier.

It's good that the Koni dampes are more than strong enough for the springs, so hopefully you should be able to find a comfortable setting. I've always run Koni's on the softer settings for the road, then used to firm them up when I got to the track. Best of both worlds that way.

I'd prefer it if I could do many more runs to find the best settings for me, but I can't be bothered to spend the rest of the day taking them on and off over and over again. Would have definitely been better if these were adjustable on the car. Glad that the fronts will be.

 

[babbo_umbro]

When I was in touch with Larkspeed a few weeks ago they suggested one full turn away from the softest setting; remembering that these dampers are set up for all petrol Pandas and that the heavier springs on the 100HP require a stiffer rebound setting that would seem to be a reasonable staring point. Sorry - I forgot about this until this morning.

 

[randysbits]

Rears are easy IMO, as long as you get the car high enough off the ground to work on it. I managed to adjust them whilst stiil on the car but i did allow the top eyelet to be slackened off then re-torqued when the car was lowered back down to the ground to avoid twist in the bush.
For everyday use, yes, no more than half a turn on the rears, and set the fronts to suit. Best improvement by far that you ever bolt on to the 100.

My thread : https://www.fiatforum.com/panda/266644-fitting-new-shocks-springs.html

 

[rturner]

Rears are easy IMO, as long as you get the car high enough off the ground to work on it. I managed to adjust them whilst stiil on the car but i did allow the top eyelet to be slackened off then re-torqued when the car was lowered back down to the ground to avoid twist in the bush.
For everyday use, yes, no more than half a turn on the rears, and set the fronts to suit. Best improvement by far that you ever bolt on to the 100.

My thread : https://www.fiatforum.com/panda/266644-fitting-new-shocks-springs.html

I went down the Koni route because of your thread, I was planning on holding you entirely responsible if they were no good

Did you fit the fronts yourself? Any pitfalls to try and avoid?

Also, have you tried more than half a turn? They do feel good now, but possibly a little on the soft side.

 

[randysbits]

Did you fit the fronts yourself? Any pitfalls to try and avoid?

Also, have you tried more than half a turn? They do feel good now, but possibly a little on the soft side.

I don't think there is any rights or wrongs when it comes to adjustment, it's down to the individual but, having said that, i hasten to add, for a compromise to the majority of people, maybe a quarter / or in between a quarter and a half turn for the optimum ride compliance for our poor road conditions.

I found that with the Panda sat on Eibachs and the Konis set on the least resistance for the bedding in period, the handling characteristic changed for the worse pushed hard into corners but obviously ironed out those ruts in the road, was ok i suppose but that's not my cup of tea, i like to FEEL what the car is doing rather than a vague feel to it

I'm glad you are trying the Koni's out first with standard springs like i should have done really but, i just purchased the lot and fitted all together as planned, there's time to consider also and didn't feel it was worth the effort just to see the difference over superior components. Aesthetically, the ride height dropped considerably, looks nice, but not practical to someone that regularly carries a "load", we never have more than 2 people in ours at a time so, thank gawd for that !!

Pit falls for fronts, yes, GET THE GEOMETRY DONE !!! do yourself and the car a favour and get some camber bolts and have the geometry set to half or 1 degree negative camber, and set toe to parallel. Another pitfall to avoid is, be prepared to renew the dust boots if they are showing their age, been caught out by that a few times now but from memory, the 100's have decent PU ones and will last.

I have not turned the shocks up more than half as, the ride quality turned out exactly how i set out to acheive it as Jusdel30 ?? said in WSM, he turned his all the way up and i bet it does ride well but with the trade of with a rather "firm" ride like as he put it "my old 1275 mini"

Fine tweaking is the order of the day but with patience an a little perseverance, too large amounts of adjustment will just get you fraustrated and you have to keep in mind, what the car is, all it will ever be, and just except that its down to you how you want it and just get "your" happy medium yeah ?

 

[babbo_umbro]

Have to say I'm not convinced about having the geometry reset. If I stick with standard springs I'd be more inclined to leave the camber setting alone. Increasing negative camber does a couple of things. It's likely to increase wear on the inside of the tyre tread, adjusting toe-in can reduce this effect but I'd suggest that it's not welcome unless there's a really significant benefit to compensate. It's also worth noting that significant lowering will add to negative camber anyway. Secondly, increased negative camber will push the contact patch out relative to the steering axis, adding slightly to steering weight and sharpening turn-in response (rather like putting spacers on the front hubs or putting on wheels with different offset), which are the results that you've mentioned but, again, I'd be surprised if any marginal gain is worth the effort, especially if the main aim is to improve the damping.

The car should already be offering sharper steering response from fitting the rear Konis, as another benefit of increased rebound damping is to reduce understeer on sharp corners; the inside rear wheel experiences a small degree of unloading as the initial roll sets in giving the effect of minor additional anti-roll stiffness. As the rolling tendency is reduced on entering longer, faster bends the reduction of understeer is less on these corners - which is what you want.

 

[rturner]

I don't think there is any rights or wrongs when it comes to adjustment, it's down to the individual but, having said that, i hasten to add, for a compromise to the majority of people, maybe a quarter / or in between a quarter and a half turn for the optimum ride compliance for our poor road conditions.

Half a turn on the rears with the standard springs is more than acceptable. I'm already wondering if I should have gone to 0.75 or 1.0 as it's a little too comfortable and, I could be imagining it, but it now seems a little vague under enthusiastic cornering.

Wasn't sure from your post though if you had changed the fronts yourself? If you did, was it as simple as the rear?

you have to keep in mind, what the car is, all it will ever be, and just except that its down to you how you want it and just get "your" happy medium yeah ?

Very true, it's never going to smooth bumps like a Merc, but it's also never going to weigh two tonnes


Just as a general observation after doing a few miles plus my commute with the new set up, the constant jiggling up and down has now been banished, but when getting onto poor surfaces the front still skips around and does it's seemingly uncontrolled rebounds. However, with the rear now happier to stay in contact with the road, it makes what the front is doing much easier to live with.

For anyone who finds the jiggling unbearable, but is also not keen on spending £500+ on uprating springs and shocks, I'd say that putting rear Koni's on is well worth the £212 and will definitely make the car easier to live with. It's also a bonus that no-one should need to pay a mechanic to do the work as it's so simple.

Part of me feels that I've now got a car that I can live with for a couple of years and that I don't need to do any more. However, I'm still going to order the front Koni's tonight, but will hold off on the Eibachs for now as I'm still keen to see what completely changing the dampers but leaving the standard springs does to the ride. Also tempted to add an extra 1/4 turn to the rears

 

[babbo_umbro]

...

Wasn't sure from your post though if you had changed the fronts yourself? If you did, was it as simple as the rear?
..

You have to compress the front springs to change the struts and that's a much more muscular undertaking - by the the time you've bought some spring compressors (and, in my experience, frightened yourself with the forces involved) you might as well get your local man to do it, and they can also check the geometry.

 

[rturner]

You have to compress the front springs to change the struts and that's a much more muscular undertaking - by the the time you've bought some spring compressors (and, in my experience, frightened yourself with the forces involved) you might as well get your local man to do it, and they can also check the geometry.

As luck would have it, I do have some spring clamps. However, I have them from an abortive attempt at changing some springs on a Clio 172 some years ago. I never got to find out how much force was involved in the springs as I was unable to shock free the bolt on the top of the strut.

 

[randysbits]

Wasn't sure from your post though if you had changed the fronts yourself? If you did, was it as simple as the rear?

Part of me feels that I've now got a car that I can live with for a couple of years and that I don't need to do any more. However, I'm still going to order the front Koni's tonight, but will hold off on the Eibachs for now as I'm still keen to see what completely changing the dampers but leaving the standard springs does to the ride. Also tempted to add an extra 1/4 turn to the rears

Yeah give them a bit more adjustment, they will only get better, its just getting the fine balance to suit the springs, and i would imagine that you can turn the Koni's up more with standard springs than with the Eibachs fitted.

I fitted the fronts myself but, i do have some nice rounded profile spring compressors, an air impact gun to speed up the process of removing the standard springs and release the top mount should it prove to be a sod to get off. The Eibach's being shorter springs, do not need spring compressors, just using the weight of yourself is adequate to refit the top mount, job done !!

Take note that the top mount pointers, point towards the rear of the car, and also that the front legs are handed due to the drop link bracket for the anti-roll bar :idea:

As for camber, i meant set to half to 1 degree if fitting the Eibachs, sorry for any confusion there Babbo !! its worth getting the bolts regardless though as, at least you can get them set equal rather than except what it rolled out the factory like. From memory, they were a fair bit out n/s & o/s, vice versa, so this can be corrected and set to whatever choice you want really, check some forums but believe it or not, you can go up to around 2 degree neg camber without inside tyre wear, its the toe that plays more a part in destroying tyres too quickly, but obviously 2 degrees is far too much for a 100, everyday use n'all that !!