Technical Koni damper experiment thread

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Technical Koni damper experiment thread

Hello :)

Half way home and Larkspeed rang, so I stopped the car. They said the replacement Koni has just arrived, so I will pick that up tomorrow, that was pretty quick.

Got home and took the front Koni off that was ok simply to check it, seems ok but on compression it is quite a bit softer than the standard 100HP strut, rebound is adjustable though.

Does that mean it may be a bit softer at he front - less crashy ????

You can't judge the damping effect by a simple push or pull on the damper - the rate of movement of compression or rebound makes a big difference to the amount of damping - that determines the rate at which damper fluid is passing through the valve; they are very non-linear so it's impossible to measure without a rig that simulates the action when on the car, or actually on the car, of course. I'm not advising that you should do it, but a much better idea would be gained by holding one end of the damper in a vice and whacking the other end with a padded hammer.
 
You can't judge the damping effect by a simple push or pull on the damper - the rate of movement of compression or rebound makes a big difference to the amount of damping - that determines the rate at which damper fluid is passing through the valve; they are very non-linear so it's impossible to measure without a rig that simulates the action when on the car, or actually on the car, of course. I'm not advising that you should do it, but a much better idea would be gained by holding one end of the damper in a vice and whacking the other end with a padded hammer.

It's amazing how much knowledge some peeps have - respect
 
Following everyone else's efforts with their 100HP I have fitted a combination of Cobra lowering springs (like Stu's) and Koni's. Whilst the front end seems happy enough the rear bottoms out and hits the (shortened like Randybits) bump stops over even minor road imperfections.The rear Koni's are actually physically longer than the OE dampers so with the car on the ramp the springs are not making contact with their seats. I am now thinking that the lowering has exceeded the Koni recommendations of not more than a 35mm drop - the general impression seems to be that with the original lowering from the standard model being 25mm and now a further 20mm the car is now at least 4cm lower.

Therefore I was wondering if shortened dampers like Bilstein produce for the rest of the Fiat range might fit ? I'm only looking to sort out the rear suspension so would appreciate any feedback if anyone knows if the rear dampers on say a Punto Mk2 or Grande Punto would fit a Panda ?

Thks :)
 
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Hi

Many thanks RTurner and all. I have now the Koni's allround. It already had the Eibach's on, but is absolutely transformed now. I took the opportunity to fit new anti roll bar drop links and top strut bearing mounts. Just needs the tracking and camber setting after I adjust the dampers (turns from softest, rears=1.5 and fronts on 0.75 - still experimenting).
Many thanks again

PS Midget4Hire, I am working tomorrow, but you have my email address if you want to see my Panda.
 
Following everyone else's efforts with their 100HP I have fitted a combination of Cobra lowering springs (like Stu's) and Koni's. Whilst the front end seems happy enough the rear bottoms out and hits the (shortened like Randybits) bump stops over even minor road imperfections.The rear Koni's are actually physically longer than the OE dampers so with the car on the ramp the springs are not making contact with their seats. I am now thinking that the lowering has exceeded the Koni recommendations of not more than a 35mm drop - the general impression seems to be that with the original lowering from the standard model being 25mm and now a further 20mm the car is now at least 4cm lower.

Therefore I was wondering if shortened dampers like Bilstein produce for the rest of the Fiat range might fit ? I'm only looking to sort out the rear suspension so would appreciate any feedback if anyone knows if the rear dampers on say a Punto Mk2 or Grande Punto would fit a Panda ?

Thks :)

DON'T DRIVE THE CAR AS IT IS.

If the rear springs are not seating, something's in the way. You imply it's not the bump stops as they only come into play when a small bump is encountered, (not sure how you know that) as the spring is not doing anything it must be the bumpstop within the damper. If that's in contact and the spring isn't, the whole weight of the rear of the car is on the damper and its retaining bolts, which means you're going to do some damage very quickly. Also, you say the Koni is shorter than the OE damper - I assume you mean on full compression but that only comes into play when the damper has run out of movement, which supports what I've just written. The spring should compress a fair way under the weight of the car so a spring that makes no contact is way shorter than it should be. I suggest the very least you should do is put the standard rear springs on right away.
 
Many thanks for your concern but think you misunderstood my post - probably due to my poor explanation ! When the car is on a lift i.e. no weight on the wheels then the springs are not seating properly : the Koni dampers being longer than the OE they keep the springs at their maximum extension. This weekend I put the OE dampers back on and the springs immediately came into effect. This is presumably due a combination of the differing damping forces and the physical length. When the car is back on its wheels there is only an inch of travel left before the bumpstops come into play.

Hence my original supposition that dampers that are shorter than OE with the same damping force as the Konis would be a better match with the existing drop. Any ideas if any rear dampers from another Fiat model would fit a Panda ? I'm looking at the Larkspeed site and the Bilstein shortened dampers seem ideal but none listed as suitable for the Panda ?
 
Many thanks for your concern but think you misunderstood my post - probably due to my poor explanation ! When the car is on a lift i.e. no weight on the wheels then the springs are not seating properly : the Koni dampers being longer than the OE they keep the springs at their maximum extension. This weekend I put the OE dampers back on and the springs immediately came into effect. This is presumably due a combination of the differing damping forces and the physical length. When the car is back on its wheels there is only an inch of travel left before the bumpstops come into play.

Hence my original supposition that dampers that are shorter than OE with the same damping force as the Konis would be a better match with the existing drop. Any ideas if any rear dampers from another Fiat model would fit a Panda ? I'm looking at the Larkspeed site and the Bilstein shortened dampers seem ideal but none listed as suitable for the Panda ?

You're right - I misunderstood - when you wrote "on the ramp" I assumed you meant on a "garage" lift so that you could see what's going on but the weight was still on the wheels. I used to have a lowered Uno turbo ie with Konis and the rear springs were clear of the seating when the car was jacked up - never caused any problems. Feedback so far seems to suggest that the Konis work better with the original springs, presumably because their rate is more linear whereas lowered springs are almost inevitably more progressive.
 
Hi

Taking 100HP to ABC Car Service of Leeds LS13 for the suspension camber setting up, and the tracking doing - when that is done I will start using the car and seeing what the best "number of turns" on the shockers is.

Andy
:)
 
When are you going? aiming to get mine booked in there next week if they arent booked up

Went today, initial impression was of just being in a general garage as there was no major signs/displays of them being specialists...perfect example of dont be shallow and judgemental!

The guy that did the work, Artur (not a typo) knows his stuff. He took the car for a ride first to assess it and could tell immediately it was out.

Once on the ramp and connected to the machine it was amazing, even measured the distance between the front & rear wheel being a millimetre out! Apparantly there is some adjustment, but he was unable to sort this.

The tracking and camber were sorted, didnt need the Eibach camber bolts. After setting up, Artur took the car for another test, much better!

All I need is to find some fuel, and I will have a play with the rebound settings. Would I recommend them....you bet!

My "settings" sheet is in the car, I will post it tomorrow.

Andy
 
Being a bit lazy.. has anyone found a better deal than Larkspeed? Considering the miles that I'm doing at the moment I'm very tempted..

Balance Motorsport were the same price as far as I remember, but they were a bit pessimistic on delivery times - I ordered from Larkspeed on Tuesday (27th) and they reckoned they'd get them on Friday and I'd have them early in the coming week - hope they aren't being too optimistic as I want to have them on the car for at least a week before we go to Italy.
 
Fiat Panda 100HP alignment settings


Front caster
Left was 2.3° now 2.1°
Right was 2.3° now 2.3°

Camber - didn't use the camber bolts!
Left was -1.4° now -1.1°
Right was 1.1° now 1.1°

Front toe
Left was 0°12’ now 0°03’
Right was 0°45’ now 0°03’
 
Did you consider running the toe parallel? Would help turn-in and make the front end feel more pointy.

Hi TDQ, yes I did as that seems to be the preferred setting, but as its not an everyday car decided not to....and the guy asked if I wanted it more aggressive, or just for tootling in...as it has the turbo, I will save tootling in my classic Panda! I was of the understanding the toe out would improve direction changes, but I am not expert which is why I took the advise of the guy doing the set-up. He had raced as well, so seemed to know his stuff.

This helped me
http://obpltd.wordpress.com/2010/06/03/tech-session-race-car-geometry/
but its still smoke and mirrors to me

Kind regards
Andy
 
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Hi TDQ, yes I did as that seems to be the preferred setting, but as its not an everyday car decided not to....and the guy asked if I wanted it more aggressive, or just for tootling in...as it has the turbo, I will save tootling in my classic Panda! I was of the understanding the toe out would improve direction changes, but I am not expert which is why I took the advise of the guy doing the set-up. He had raced as well, so seemed to know his stuff.

This helped me
http://obpltd.wordpress.com/2010/06/03/tech-session-race-car-geometry/
but its still smoke and mirrors to me

Kind regards
Andy

You're right, Toe out ought to make it even more lively at the front end. I misread your toe as toe in, my mistake!

Well, would be interesting to see how you find it. (y)
 
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