Hello

My girlfriend picked up our Panda 1.3 multijet diesel 4x4 Cross from Westover Fiat Poole today. She drove it about 40 miles back to Lymington, when the warning light came on, telling her to stop driving it. She was in the middle of nowhere in the New Forest, so had to drive 10 miles or so back to the closest garage where they lifted the bonnet and found oil everywhere and the oil tank was dry. They clearly forgot to put the lid back on, or to replace the oil, or both. Either way, the car is there now and I'm going to be having a very earnest discussion with Fiat UK tomorrow about this. Its not the first Fiat approved dealership service debacle I've had to deal with this year, unfortunately.

My question is - how much damage is likely to have occurred? How can I trust the dealership not to fob me off and say that everything's OK when in fact terminal damage might have been done? Are the 1.3L multijet diesel engines available - could I reasonably insist on a replacement engine?

Very grateful for any advice from those who know about these things.

Blimey, bad news, if she drove it with the light on that far then fiat might not be interested as I am sure the manual will say to stop regardless of how the oil left the engine. If they weren't so hard to get hold of it would be worth giving it back.
If it didn't seize itself in 10miles it couldn't be empty of oil so you might be looking at some accelerated wear on the cam and turbo.

I had a lancia ypsilon hire car that was running on the very minimum of oil to the point the light came on when cold as it couldn't drain to the sump quickly enough. It rattled a bit but did the 250miles I needed. After a certain amount of time with the light blinking on and off in the mornings it actually would tickover as the ecu was dropping a big hint it shouldn't be running. Difficult while driving through turin.

The thing is, there's no mobile reception in the New Forest, so she couldn't call anyone, she was on her own and she's 19 weeks pregnant. I look forward to Fiat trying to pull the 'you should have stopped in the middle of the New Forest when the light showed' line on me. Just let them try that one and they'll see what happens when I really get my teeth into something.

Still can't believe a Fiat dealership let a car go out without sealing the oil tank.

sorry - rude of me, should have said first of all - thanks for your reply!

I would demand a new engine you cannot garantee how long it ran for and you are lucky they didn't cause an accident

Firstly, condolences. This is the sort of incident nobody wants, and it is all the more annoying to know that it would have been avoided if the FIAT dealership had done their job properly. :bang:.

jrhartley said:

My question is - how much damage is likely to have occurred?

Click to expand...

This is very difficult to answer. Running without oil could cause excessive wear and/or damage to any of the components which depend on effective lubrication. Whether this will ultimately cause a real-world problem is at best a guess - the engine could fail outright next week, or it could still be running perfectly in 10 years time when the car is scrapped for an unrelated reason.

Perhaps the real damage is to your confidence in the car's long term mechanical reliability.

As to advising where you go from here, it'd be helpful to know

How long have you had the car?
How old is it?
How much warranty remains on it?
How long were you planning to keep it?

Sorry to hear the news, for me I would say the dealership is at fault, they should have made sure the vehicle was fit for purpose before it left them. You cannot expect a 19 week pregnant lady to be lifting the bonnet up at the dealership just to make sure...
I would probably ask for a new engine as to hand such a hard to find cross back to them would be icing on the cake. So stick to your guns and good luck. :bang:

Has the engine been run since refilling with oil? Any noises, does the warning light flicker? Any leaks? You might be surprised and find it's OK - unless it was driven hard for that "ten miles". Good luck with Fiat, I'd suspect failing to stop might be seen by them as having contributed to any possible damage.

Thanks for your suggestions and comments. It is a three year old Panda Cross, this was its first MOT and three year service, full Fiat service history, owned by me from new. I had intended to keep it for a long time - I really like it and I like the scarcity of it - its refreshing not to see 10 of your same car on the road every day!

I have found out that it was probably driven under 5 miles from when the warning light first sounded, but the garage that my g/f pulled into said they thought the car was making a bad noise when she pulled up. She just thought it was going to be a case of buying oil and topping it up - she obviously hadn't banked on this sort of blunder on the return journey from the Fiat dealership.

I was wondering if I can reasonably demand an extended engine warranty, or if I am within my rights to demand a replacement engine because of this? I guess I need to wait to hear what the dealership offer - at the moment the main thing is getting the car recovered and a replacement car sorted out. Will keep you posted of what transpires on this....

Firstly, hard luck for you and your partner - apart from the mechanical side of things it's a good deal of stress that you could do without.

Secondly, I think you need to stop referring to "sealing the oil tank" - there is no oil tank, or seal in the sense that you're using it. The dealer has to 'fess up to not refilling the sump after draining it. Leaving the filler cap off on its own couldn't have caused a total loss of the full complement of engine oil in that distance. The whole engine compartment would be literally swimming in oil if it had all spewed out of the filler cap, and the risk of a fire with oil on the turbocharger would be very high (makes me go cold to think about that given the circumstances).

It might be worth looking at the filter as well, as failure to replace that would be another indicator that the job hasn't been finished. Is the dipstick there in the right place, somewhere under the bonnet, or completely missing? Was the oil black? The oil in a diesel engine becomes black quite quickly but a total refill with fresh oil would look different from oil that's done several thousand miles. Is the filler cap somewhere under the bonnet or is it missing completely?

Fiat has made literally millions of the 1.3 MJ engine, so there are plenty about. Not sure that you could make a case for a completely new engine, I suspect that replacement with an engine in the condition that yours was before the cock-up is what they might be obliged to do, though if you prevail they might decide that a new engine is less hassle all round. I'd advise you to be absolutely firm in demanding a like-for-like replacement as that is a totally reasonable request and refusing that would be more difficult for them, whereas expecting a new engine is easier for them to turn down.

Good luck.

if the oil cap was left off it wouldnt result in all the oil being lost

i would suggest that they didn't put the oil in and the cap blew off due to pressure build up in the engine

damage WILL have been caused to the engine

the car malfunctioned after service FACT
was it because of the negligence of dealer MAYBE

good luck getting it resolved

RobW said:

if the oil cap was left off it wouldnt result in all the oil being lost

Click to expand...

Actually I think it might. Having seen the amount of oil in the engine bay after someone drove a car for less that 2 miles with an oil filler cap off, I'd say it's entirely within the bounds of possibility to lose enough after 40 miles to put on the warning light. But if this happened, you'd be in no doubt whatsoever because the whole area under the bonnet would be dripping with the stuff. TBH though, I'd have thought you'd have smelt the fumes from it burning off the exhaust & turbo before you got that far.,..

Another possibility is that the garage didn't tighten the filter properly & it leaked out of an imperfect seal.

Then again, maybe they left the sump plug loose & it fell out after 40 miles.

It's hard to believe they didn't put any oil in at all, otherwise the oil light would have stayed on from the time you first started the engine. From the symptoms the OP has described, it's either a gradual leak from the time of leaving the garage, or something catastrophic happened at 40 miles when the light came on.

Nothing to do now I guess but to wait & see what the dealership has to say - but if it's in need of recovery, then I'd say it's not looking good at all. If no damage had been done, they could have replenished the oil, replaced the filler cap & just driven it away.

There was apparently oil all over the engine when the Renault dealer opened the hood. The Fiat dealership seem to be talking about just returning the car to me later today if, on their own say so, its fine. Clearly this is not an acceptable solution from any rational person's perspective, as it is obviously in any garage's dealership after such a major blunder to say 'Phew, no harm done this time, on your way'. I will want it independently inspected (and by that I mean not a different Fiat dealership either).

jrhartley said:

There was apparently oil all over the engine when the Renault dealer opened the hood. The Fiat dealership seem to be talking about just returning the car to me later today if, on their own say so, its fine. Clearly this is not an acceptable solution from any rational person's perspective, as it is obviously in any garage's dealership after such a major blunder to say 'Phew, no harm done this time, on your way'. I will want it independently inspected (and by that I mean not a different Fiat dealership either).

Click to expand...

The evidence is pointing to them having left off the filler cap, which is perhaps the 'least-worst' scenario of the ones considered here.

If the car is running fine & the dealer isn't prepared do anything else, then you'll need evidence that the car has in fact actually been damaged if you want to pursue this further.

I'd suggest getting an oil analysis done - this should show up any excessive internal wear in the engine.

www.oilanalysis.org.uk

You can buy two kits online for £60. Have one done in, say, 1000 miles time, and another 3-6 months later.

If both come back as normal, and the car isn't showing any further symptoms, then I think you can relax. If they don't, then you've got hard evidence to back up your case.

:Offtopic:for £35, one of these oil testing kits could be a worthwhile investment for anyone contemplating an expensive used car purchase.

Playing devils advocate from the dealers perspective.

The car was run with the warning light on and is a massive "get out of jail free" card for them. That it was driven by a pregnant woman is not going to sway them at all. If she was 8.5 months up the duff then maybe but 19 weeks does not prevent you pulling over and walking to a house or flagging down help etc. The dealer has made a mistake and the rectification of that mistake is to put the cap back on and refill with oil and clean the engine bay plus some compensation for inconvenience. The other mistake made was to run the engine in that state and that is not their fault. The handbook says clearly to stop immediately and that was not adhered to. They will certainly see any damage as your fault.

I think you will have an arguable case for a replacement engine but the dealer will be reasonable in saying there was a contributing factor from the user and you may well have to compromise by paying some of the cost. To even start your argument though there will need to be some sign or evidence of damage.

They've obviously not put the filler cap back on - did it turn up somewhere in the engine bay?

I did the same thing with my Brava 1.2 - annoyingly after deliberately checking the oil before a long trip....

After 100 miles I got a hot oil smell in the cabin, I took an educated risk and drove another 100 (carefully). The next day I confirmed that oil had blown everywhere out of the filler cap, I refilled with Halfords 10/40 and blocked the filler opening up with tissue paper until a replacement cap arrived.

Anyway I probably lost 1 1/2 litres but there were no ill effects, the car still runs really sweet. The spilt oil did eventually cause a misfire by pooling in one of the spark plugs, when I took off the plastic engine cover to investigate I found the original filler cap! I had assumed it had fallen off on the road.

Your engine may still be alright but I would fear for the health of the Turbo. Hopefully the garage will at least clean the engine and not charge for the service.....

jrkitching said:

.........But if this happened, you'd be in no doubt whatsoever because the whole area under the bonnet would be dripping with the stuff. TBH though, I'd have thought you'd have smelt the fumes from it burning off the exhaust & turbo before you got that far.,........

Click to expand...

With absolutely no intention of causing any offense or wishing to cast doubt on the technical skills of the young lady in question, some of the states of our cars which my wife, a driver of many years and nobody's fool - normally - has managed to bring home, steam, smoke, you name it escaping from bonnets and wheels, I'd not put much faith in this person having been at all worried about smells or fumes.
"Rattle, what rattle?" said my misses once and reached to turn the radio up.......

Could it have been overfilled with oil?

Having a turbo means extra vulnerability, but diesel fuel in itself is a lubricant, so things may not be so bad...

Best of luck, whatever happens, its a horrible situation.

jrhartley said:

There was apparently oil all over the engine when the Renault dealer opened the hood. The Fiat dealership seem to be talking about just returning the car to me later today if, on their own say so, its fine. Clearly this is not an acceptable solution from any rational person's perspective, as it is obviously in any garage's dealership after such a major blunder to say 'Phew, no harm done this time, on your way'. I will want it independently inspected (and by that I mean not a different Fiat dealership either).

Click to expand...

the fact that "ONLY" the oil filler cap was misplaced is not the issue here,
the engine has lost enough oil whereby the oil pump has had little to pump , causing the low-oil-pressure warning.

if it was a petrol it would have siezed pretty quickly, but as Diesel is an oil / lubricant you got to a garage o.k.,

I hit debris in the road on my old Tipo -While towing , it knackered the oil-cooler hose, and ripped off the wiring for the oil-pressure switch, so NO low oil light came on,
I did 200 miles towing like this.. "how bad was it..??" , it took 4 litres for the level to re-appear on the dipstick( 4.5L is a full change) and in 10 seconds running it was back out all over the road,
thinking the engine was stuffed I bought another car..,
my sister-in-law needed a car and I said, it might last you a couple of weeks,
10 months later she got me to check it over for the MOT, seeing the oil was on the full mark , I asked " how often do you top-it-up" , the reply " you do that when I bring it over", = it covered the NEXT 150,000 without a hiccup , and burnt NO oil.

you may be lucky, but that's still no reason to let the garage get away with such an omission,
it could have been disastrous if you'd belted up the motorways for 8 hours that night.

when the oil filter "fell-off" our panda the day after a main-dealer service , I was driving, and my wife said "that was lucky - I wouldn't have noticed"...,

I saw the light.. , pulled to the side of the m-way, and as I stopped... there was a great cloud / mist of oil vapour surrounding the car,
I was convinced it was toast , but after they told me the oil filter seal had "failed",
after they steam-cleaned the car , it was pronounced fit, and to honest it's been great for the last 60K.

don't lose all faith with the car, but try and get some real-world assurances that they will foot any ensuing bills,
good luck,
Charlie

Pandablues said:

I'd not put much faith in this person having been at all worried about smells or fumes.
"Rattle, what rattle?" said my misses once and reached to turn the radio up.......

Click to expand...

A couple of years back Ladykitching was driving my old Ka to work in the winter when she noticed a small puff of steam coming from the bonnet as she pulled up to a roundabout. Despite it being bitterly cold and only a mile from her nice warm office, she pulled into the first available space, turned the engine off & 'phoned home.

I drove straight over, took her the last mile to work, and went back to look at the car. The expansion tank was empty & there was no visible coolant in the rad. The problem was a failed themostat housing gasket - it didn't take long to find as the water I added literally poured straight out of it. Luckily there was a Ford main dealer less than a mile away & they had a gasket in stock - result was I had the car back at her office by lunchtime, repaired for the grand sum of 78p.

It hadn't even overheated to the point of triggering the temperature warning light. Her prompt action & decision to stop driving immediately saved a wrecked engine & the almost certain scrapping of the car.

Paying attention to what your car is telling you and being prepared to accept some minor short-term inconvenience can sometimes save you some very expensive repairs.