Well, Westover delivered a replacement car to me late on Friday afternoon - Fiat customer care have been informed about this major gaff up so I will see what they propose on Monday. I have said that I expect an extended engine warranty or for them to pay for an independent mechanic to inspect the engine, so I'll see what they say. I will also be forwarding them the taxi receipts from Friday pre-replacement car.
Technical Panda 4x4 driven with no oil
- Thread starter jrhartley
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Technical Panda 4x4 driven with no oil
You can buy the wrethed gasket for 78p! I bought a tube of instant gasket thinking it would have been cheaper :bang:
Diesel is only a lubricant for the fuel system, not the whole engine, a DERV will sieze just as easily as a petrol.
Equally, I'm not sure about the Panda MJ, but know other DERVs in the Fiat range have low oil level sensors on top of low pressure which is all the petrols have. OP was it low pressure or level light that came up?
Equally in the garages defence for the distance driven, I doubt the whole distance needed to be driven to get a phone signal or to somewhere with a phone. I think the distance driven might be an issue with claiming. Will watch with interest though.
They have said that there's no damage and they think that anyone like the AA would have to strip down the engine to properly inspect it. They have marked on the car's record what has happened - they claim that the warning lights come on long before damage would be caused. it seems someone didn't replace the oil filter properly and one of the seals on the filter housing blew out. I'm a bit in the dark on all this - I don't know about engines. I am going to write to them now to get the whole thing in writing from their side.
Tbh it could have been a faulty oil seal on the filter rather than the filter not fitted properly, had that happen on a friends 100hp at the beginning of the year and it dropped all it's oil after he booted it away from the lights, was fine for the first 5 mile previous.
babbo_umbro
Established member
This sounds reasonable - several people have suggested that not replacing the filler cap couldn't have caused that level of oil loss, and that losing that much oil on the top of the engine would have had the whole engine compartment swimming in the stuff. It seems to me that the essential factor is that the garage states in writing the reasons you give, and you'd be wise to confirm it in writing as well. On the down side, having the issue on the car's service record, and your awareness of it, must jeopardise any resale value - assuming that there isn't a further problem that results in an engine change/rebuild - so it sounds as though you need to try to ignore the issue and rebuild your struts in the car. Try not to have an accident while watching the oil pressure warning light obsessively, or to hear unwelcome noises coming from the engine.
babbo_umbro
Established member
That should be "trust" not "struts" - rebuilding the struts is another topic entirely.
At the risk of repeating myself (which I'm about to do!), this is the only way I know (short of stripping down the engine) of finding out if any long term damage has been done:
What I'm adding now is that whether you think it's fair or not, if the engine does go pop after more than a few months have passed, it will be extremely bothersome and you'll most likely be facing a very large bill with little realistic hope of getting much of it paid by either FIAT or the dealership. An oil analysis would give you either peace of mind, or the chance to dispose of the car before the worst happens, depending on the result.
IMO that's worth £60.
What I'm adding now is that whether you think it's fair or not, if the engine does go pop after more than a few months have passed, it will be extremely bothersome and you'll most likely be facing a very large bill with little realistic hope of getting much of it paid by either FIAT or the dealership. An oil analysis would give you either peace of mind, or the chance to dispose of the car before the worst happens, depending on the result.
IMO that's worth £60.
An oil analysis won't say how worn the engine is will it?
Good question. These tests are sensitive and if there's been any major internal damage you'll likely see an abnormal result from the residual oil even though it's now well diluted. What's probably more important is the difference between the oil now, and the oil in about 6 months time. This will show if the rate of wear is within accepted limits, in which case you can reasonably expect the engine to keep working for its normal lifespan. That's why I suggested doing two tests - the first will identify if there's a significant short term problem (and give you some evidence to take the matter forward with FIAT &/or the dealership), the second will give you an idea about whether the engine is likely to last the life of the car (which may influence your thinking about how long you plan to keep it).
I'm sorry you've had this bother; the dealership doing the service obviously didn't check the refitted filter for leaks and this is absolutely inexcusable.
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It'll show how much wear has taken place since the oil was put in - you're looking for traces of metals in the spectrographic analysis, from which you can deduce the amount of wear in various parts of the engine according to the specific elements found. Have a look here:
http://www.oilanalysis.org.uk/downloads.php
for a sample analysis report.
Once significant wear occurs, the rate of wear usually increases - so if the OP's car gets a 'satisfactory' result in 6 months time, the chances of any serious damage are small.
Hi ,
I'm intrigued by this..( as an engineer),
as that's whats alleged to have happened to my Panda,
how did the seal "fail",
split in half ?, break-up ?,
as far as I 'm aware most "cannister" oil filters have a retaining groove that the Square section oil seal sits in, once it is screwed onto the stub and lightly tensioned - the oil-seal is then captive on FOUR sides.. ,
quite how a seal can then fail is quite a feat..!!,
Imagine if you pulled-over to find a piston sat on the ground under the car.. , that too should be constrained by FOUR faces,
I'm fascinated to find out, as mine was remedied under warranty so I never got to see it.., however there was such a HUGE loss of oil , I thought I'd blown a crank seal.. another cannister oil-filter was certainly the cheap option...,
Charlie
I can't remember exactly now (which is really annoying me), but from memory though when removed it looked fine, but it was only when screwed into place and tightened 3/4 as they should be that it then became apparent that the seal would mis-shape and slip out of place very slightly. Then only when the oil system was under full pressure (accelerating hard etc) would it then stress this mis-shape in the seal and breach it big style causing the mass oil loss.
I now always check the filter seal when seated in place to check it looks seated correctly.
I now always check the filter seal when seated in place to check it looks seated correctly.
This is also why it's important to smear a little oil on both sides of the seal before fitting it. If the seal isn't properly lubricated, part of it could stick to the metal before it's fully tightened, causing it to distort.
Running the engine & checking for leaks after fitting the new filter is part of the job. Personally, I check again after the car's first journey after an oil change. I've never found a problem in 40 years - but I still keep checking.
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It is indeed why it is important to oil the seal. Serviced the Stilo today and checked the oil filter seal and sump plug several times after starting the engine
It is indeed why it is important to oil the seal. Serviced the Stilo today and checked the oil filter seal and sump plug several times after starting the engine
Treated the Panda to its second oil change yesterday. Parallel lives or what?
Try this little experiment next time you change an oil filter. Take the new filter just as it comes out of the box & hold it in one hand. Now press on the seal with your other hand and twist. You'll find the seal sticks to the filter body & rotates under your palm. Now remove the seal, oil only the filter side of its face, replace and repeat the experiment. This time, the seal will stick to your (gloved) hand & spin freely against the filter. This should convince anyone of the need to remove the seal & oil both sides rather than just taking it out of the box, smearing a dab of oil on the outer face & fitting it. It's important that the seal can move freely on both faces so that it's not subject to any internal stress in service.
If it happens to stick on both faces before it's fully tightened, then as well as the risk of distortion, the residual stress in the rubber will tend to unscrew it - it's only hand tightened, and with the vibration from the engine, it's easy to see how this could cause it to loosen in service & leak.
I'd wager serious money that the OP's problems started with a mechanic just taking a filter out of a box & screwing it straight onto the engine.
