What a load of......
If a driver anticipates what steering movement.......
So what your saying is that if something unexpected happens the driver is up **** creek with turd for a paddle?
General 1.1 Active Longlasting Tyres
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General 1.1 Active Longlasting Tyres
If a driver anticipates what steering movement.......
So what your saying is that if something unexpected happens the driver is up **** creek with turd for a paddle?
I think the main problem with push pull, even if done 'correctly' is that:
1: you don't know where the wheels are pointing, so if you get into a slide you've got little chance of getting out of it.
2: you could never react quickly enough to get out of said slide.
3. it cannot be done smoothly, ie you shouldn't be push/pulling the wheel when you are turning towards an apex!
I do not that lean/mean states only road driving. Obviously a push pull method would the quickest way to an accident on track. But, when you think about why that might be, the answer is that if you get into a slide you'll struggle to get out of it using a push/pull method. Now some of the IAM brigade may well argue a track is different from a road, well obviously(!) but a slide or a skid is exactly that no matter where it happens.
So I'd only advise a fixed arm position, particularly so at higher speeds, whether on road or track.
The advantage is:
1: you know where the wheels are pointing.
2. in the the situation of getting into a slide you'll know where to point the wheels and you can put on lock or wind it off accurately.
3. It is just so much smoother, to the point where as a result you may well not get into a skid in the first place.
If I went out as a passenger on track and the person used the push/pull method, I'd either give them some instruction, or asked to be let out the next time we go past the pits. I don't even feel safe if I'm a passenger with someone who does that on the road, so rarely let others drive me.
1: you don't know where the wheels are pointing, so if you get into a slide you've got little chance of getting out of it.
2: you could never react quickly enough to get out of said slide.
3. it cannot be done smoothly, ie you shouldn't be push/pulling the wheel when you are turning towards an apex!
I do not that lean/mean states only road driving. Obviously a push pull method would the quickest way to an accident on track. But, when you think about why that might be, the answer is that if you get into a slide you'll struggle to get out of it using a push/pull method. Now some of the IAM brigade may well argue a track is different from a road, well obviously(!) but a slide or a skid is exactly that no matter where it happens.
So I'd only advise a fixed arm position, particularly so at higher speeds, whether on road or track.
The advantage is:
1: you know where the wheels are pointing.
2. in the the situation of getting into a slide you'll know where to point the wheels and you can put on lock or wind it off accurately.
3. It is just so much smoother, to the point where as a result you may well not get into a skid in the first place.
If I went out as a passenger on track and the person used the push/pull method, I'd either give them some instruction, or asked to be let out the next time we go past the pits. I don't even feel safe if I'm a passenger with someone who does that on the road, so rarely let others drive me.
Yes it does. Eg. If you are in top gear and come to a red light you just brake until you stop, easy foot work, and you don't need to move your hands. There is no real benefit to going through the gears in this situation and block changing is so much less work!
For corners it doesn't really make any difference. By the time you reach the corner you should be in the correct gear irrespective of which techniques you use. For a corner you want to be in the correct gear so that you can apply some torque to maintain your speed, and then accelerate when the bend opens up. On twisty roads I generally only use a few gears anyway so there isn't so much of a difference between the two techniques.
Surely block changing is better for the synchros (ie. fewer changes)? It looked like you were talking about going through the gears.
Hmmmm. You don't just want control at the apex, you want to keep control throughout the entry to the corner. Block shifting is more likely to land you in trouble if you're having a bit of a drive.
Well quite, I mean if you approach a bend and it's a second gear corner and you are in fourth, going straight into second (without heel and toeing and not having gone through a heel and toe downchange to third before that you are going to find it much harder to match the revs. I suspect most people don't bother) you are going to unbalance the car.
As for coming up to traffic lights, it doesn't really matter what you do.
There was a segment on Fith Gear a while ago with VBH and a Police driver comparing techniques both on road and track. You can probably find it on YouTube. I recall the Police technique made for poor lap times but going round a track is a very different thing to chasing wrong 'uns on the public roads.
In a skid I can see how other techniques may be better. However if you grip the wheel near the 10 to 2 position (imagine a clock) then you are in a good position to use a number of different techniques. There are some people who do like pull-push for controling skids, but a lot prefer rotational steering.
I have had a little experiment in a car park and found that pull-push was far better than rotational at those (slow) speeds. If I need a very small input then I would use fixed input (griping with both hands), and this would probably be suitable for high speed tack driving. Fixed input has problems when you need more than about 180 degrees of steering. For 99.9% of driving on public roads I would always recommend pull-push. I've been driving my Panda for almost a year and I can't remember ever losing control.
I would recommend the quarter to three position. What is handy about this is just about every steering wheel has thumb positions making it comfortable to hold.
As for slow speed manouevering, well it doesn't really matter what you do in those situations, not really.
The thing is at any speed >30mph a fixed input is enough because you'd never need more than 180 degrees of turn.
I guess my point is that if you find yourself in a skid you are always better off with a fixed hand technique, so why not apply it at any speed where no more than 180 degrees of rotation is required?
As for slow speed manouevering, well it doesn't really matter what you do in those situations, not really.
The thing is at any speed >30mph a fixed input is enough because you'd never need more than 180 degrees of turn.
I guess my point is that if you find yourself in a skid you are always better off with a fixed hand technique, so why not apply it at any speed where no more than 180 degrees of rotation is required?
I can't quite believe your final statement, Lauren! So, with my experience and qualifications, you would still not allow me to drive?
Are we "Off Topic"?
babbo umbro
Member
What a load of......
If a driver anticipates what steering movement.......
So what your saying is that if something unexpected happens the driver is up **** creek with turd for a paddle?
Don't understand what point you're trying to make, if any, other than that's it's a mistake to notice what the road's doing and anticipating what the driver needs to do - or just being gratuitously rude.
I can't quite believe your final statement, Lauren! So, with my experience and qualifications, you would still not allow me to drive?
You're a driving instructor, I think that's a good enough reason to not let you drive
What I'm saying is that the unexpected happens and you can't simply drive and hope that no one's going to cut you off, no one's going to run out in front of you etc etc.
babbo umbro
Member
In which case we're both making the same point. For example, imagine you're about to turn sharp left into a side street, or go round a left-hand hairpin bend, that will require, say, half a turn or so of steering lock; hands at 3 and 9 o'clock; you can either shuffle or - anticipating what you're about to do - move your right hand to 5 o'clock to make the turn with your right hand permanently on the wheel. Which is what what most of us would do, I imagine. My other point was that if, for instance, a child stepped off the kerb while you were making that left turn, you'd do whatever you could to avoid running it over, even running into another vehicle if necessary - but you wouldn't shuffle the wheel.
I can't quite believe your final statement, Lauren! So, with my experience and qualifications, you would still not allow me to drive?
Not if you are going quickly, no. I admit though to not being a good passenger. I hardly ever let my fiance drive for example.
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Maybe I was being a bit harsh, but I'd hope you'd adopt a more fixed steering approach if going at high speed, say down an A Road.
I did wonder if you were a little bit of a control freak?!
I use a variety of techniques, depending on the type of road and the conditions. They could range from what I teach my students, to IAM/Police Roadcraft, through to circuit.
If anyone wants to see fast-road driving done in the smoothest possible way, take a drive with John Lyon.
I would add that 'fixed steering' is easier in a car with a quicker steering rack fitted. In my Gran's old Rover 214, your arms are crossed on even a gentle bend!
Very true.I would add that 'fixed steering' is easier in a car with a quicker steering rack fitted. In my Gran's old Rover 214, your arms are crossed on even a gentle bend!
I once spun a Peugeot 504 because I couldn't wind enough opposite lock on quickly enough because it had a very slow rack. 20 year old tyres which were only just above legal didn't help but it was still my fault
