As part of the Annual D.I.Y. Service on my wife's Panda today I changed the Spark Plugs this morning. Drove the car round the block and all seemed to be fine... or at least that's what i initially thought.

Started the vehicle this afternoon to fill it up with petrol to be greeted by a "ping" and the words "Engine Failure" on the dashboard... fantastic!
The engine also seemed to be misfiring.

I returned the "old" spark plugs back into the engine, just in case the brain of britain from halfords had supplied me with the wrong spark plugs. This made no difference. Rather than mess about any further, i called out the R.A.C.

They turned up promptly, i confirmed that i had definetly not tinkered with any of the injectors. He connected a lap-top to the ECU that stated "Injector No 4 Failure". The R.A.C. guy then wanted to prove this was the case by:

1) Checking the Coil.
2) Checking all 4 injectors with a flashing bulb connector.
3) Swapping round leads.
4) Disconnecting Injector 4 whilst keeping the engine running which had no effect what so ever.

Conclusion:

Injector No 4 Failure confirmed - Car Towed away to a "recommended" Non-Fiat garage for repairs.

Questions:

1) Do Fiat keep this part in stock?
2) Any ideas of how much it will cost?
3) Is this a common Fault?
4) Would it make sense to change the other 3 Injectors at the same time?

Anticipated Thanks for any responses.

FFF (Frustrated Fiat Fool)


Just for the record, totally disappointed with this "54" Plate Eleganza and would never, ever buy another for friend or foe!

Other faults/issues/irritations with this Panda since brand new purchase:

1) After 1 year and 6 months, 16,000 miles, the radio/cd volume button fell off. Replacement cost around £5.00.
2) After 2 years, 21,000 miles, the power steering progressively "wears" the inside shoulders of both front tyres. Tyres require replacement even though plenty of depth/grip on the rest of the tyres. Balancing/Wheel Alignment checks have discounted any other possible reasons. Replacement cost for 2 Tyres £92.00.
3) After 2 years and 1 month, 24,000 miles, the complete light stalk/arm needed replacing because the headlights would switch off for no reason whilst travelling. Especially exciting when coming down country lanes at midnight.... Not! After heated discussions with the Franchise a 2 year service was "negotiated" for a cost of £260.00 which meant the light stalk/arm would be replaced under warranty at no extra cost, the car would also be serviced. Strange that the cost outside of warranty for stalk/arm part, vat and fitting pretty much came to the same figure but with no service... spooky! The 2 year service appears to be nothing more than a lot of "checks".
4) After 2 years and 6 months, 30,000 miles, the boot handle is showing intermittent opening efficiency i.e. sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I have worked out the by pushing the handle away from you before pulling it towards you, does the trick. However, after reading other posts this also looks like a potential future expensive replacement repair.
5) After 3 Years, 35,000 miles, the exhaust started to vibrate and communicate to the underside of the car body via the means of morse code. Exhaust clamp had "rusted away". I puchased a replacement clamp and fitted it myself for a cost of £1.02.
6) After 3 Years and 9 months, 41,000 miles, the complete steering servo and ECU failed. After discovering this forum and lengthy painful communication with Fiat the initial cost of £920.58 was reduced/agreed to a cost of £164.50.
7) After 4 Years and 1 month, 44,000 miles, engine injector number four has failed. Cost unknown at this stage.

Frustrated Fiat Fool said:

Questions:

1) Do Fiat keep this part in stock? Unlikely
2) Any ideas of how much it will cost? Ask garage!
3) Is this a common Fault? No
4) Would it make sense to change the other 3 Injectors at the same time? No

Just for the record, totally disappointed with this "54" Plate Eleganza and would never, ever buy another for friend or foe!

Majority of people here thinks the panda is very reliable.

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Maybe you should just sell the car & buy something else then ?

T14086,

In response:

1) All Fiat Parts Departments are closed so I can't check availability of this part. Hence, just wondered if anyone on the Forum may know?
2) I have asked the Garage about the cost. They have indicated 1 hour's labour + "... what ever the hell Fiat want to rip you off for?" Their terminology not mine.
3) If it's not a common fault then i will just add it to the other six faults i have had to endure whether common or not.
4) Changing the other three injectors at the same time, i will take your suggestion to NOT change them on board.

"Maybe you should just sell the car & buy something else then ?"

T14086, I have every intention of doing this. On the basis that this vehicle develops a new fault, on average every 6-7 months.

Do you want to buy it? Make me an offer i can't refuse? One Frustrated Fiat Fool Owner from new.

Many Thanks for your almost immediate reply.

Regards

FFF

Frustrated Fiat Fool said:

T14086, I have every intention of doing this. On the basis that this vehicle develops a new fault, on average every 6-7 months.

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Go to any forum and you will see similar posts like yours, yes there are more 'reliable brands' but for the price you wont get much better than a panda.

From memory I believe the panda does very well in surveys.

Frustrated Fiat Fool said:

Just for the record, totally disappointed with this "54" Plate Eleganza and would never, ever buy another for friend or foe!

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just for the record, very happy with having owned a 04 plate eleganza, from new, with some faults along the way, and a similar mileage, i would, and do, recommend one to anyone who has a look round it at the shows.

any brand, any model, has it's issues, it's just some have a better handle on dealing with it that others. and by that i don't mean actually dealing with the faults, as evidenced by mercedes, the cast iron, copper bottomed standard of engineering excellence, being dropped to the lower reaches of a slew of satisfaction surveys by the turd in the crown that is the m-class, as well as many others in teh range lineup.

T14086 said:

Go to any forum and you will see similar posts like yours, yes there are more 'reliable brands' but for the price you wont get much better than a panda.

From memory I believe the panda does very well in surveys.

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I have to agree with T here, take a look at the VAG sites about the pedal boxes that fail with regular monotony on all the range (maybe Audi excepted) Then look at the turbo failures, the injector problems and of course the coil pack problems... The biggest difference between VAG and FIAT is the premium you pay for the privilege. Its a fact of motoring life I'm afraid....

Ffoxy said:

The biggest difference between VAG and FIAT is the premium you pay for the privilege. Its a fact of motoring life I'm afraid....

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something in that...i wonder.......do you think that because some people have paid a lot more, for their premium brand car, they are less inclined to talk about it if it goes wrong. for fear of being lumped in with the hoi polloi, and our so called "lesser brands"?

I admit openly i'm pro-fiat....but I really dont think Fiat deserve the reputation it often gets especially when (as Jai & Ffoxy rightly state) other 'reliable' brands are churning out what an only be described as crap in sections of their range!

Jai said:

something in that...i wonder.......do you think that because some people have paid a lot more, for their premium brand car, they are less inclined to talk about it if it goes wrong. for fear of being lumped in with the hoi polloi, and our so called "lesser brands"?

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Seen plenty of audi's pushing alot of smoke through the exhaust today, so I'd say so!

Jai said:

something in that...i wonder.......do you think that because some people have paid a lot more, for their premium brand car, they are less inclined to talk about it if it goes wrong. for fear of being lumped in with the hoi polloi, and our so called "lesser brands"?

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For sure Jai, only came to my attention when researching Seat Ibiza faults. They are common to the whole VAG range, inc Golf and Polo which were the "reliable car" staple diet. Its a fallacy I'm afraid.

T14086 said:

I admit openly i'm pro-fiat....but I really dont think Fiat deserve the reputation it often gets especially when (as Jai & Ffoxy rightly state) other 'reliable' brands are churning out what an only be described as crap in sections of their range!

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Fiat are a budget car at a budget price, end of.

You know my 1 and only negative view on FIAT, T....

The biggest difference is that the premium price paid for a VW secures some interestingly long "out of normal warranty" free repairs.

Jai said:

just for the record, very happy with having owned a 04 plate eleganza, from new, with some faults along the way

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SNAP. With the exception of the steering issue and the availability of parts from fiat I have loved every minute of my Panda.

I just think you've had a bad egg thats all. Cut your losses and get rid if its causing you that much grief.

My boss has a Maserati Quatroporte. If you want a hassle free reliable car then I seriously suggest you don't buy one (should you happen to be thinking of!!). However, if you want to find a comically unreliable car to reference against then it would be a good choice. It all started when the dealer delivered it to him. He got in, started it up, went to reverse out his drive and the dashboard lit up like a christmas tree with traction control, ECU warning and some other lights going off. He switched it off, went back in the house and it's been a tail of very expensive woe ever since.

Even in the deepest bluest nicest of seas, there's going to be a floating turd somewhere, and it looks like you swam into it!

I feel your pain that you have experienced so many problems with your fiat, it looks like unfortunately you have just got a wrongen! I honestly believe that you could get rid of your current panda, but another (same spec, same age) and have years of trouble free pandering!

In response to your questions, its unlikely that your injector will be in stock, but should only take a few days to come in. It will cost you around £100+vat and labour. You only need change the one that has failed. (i would however check the remaining are functioning correctly)

I genuinely hope that you get your problem sorted and that someday you try fiat again and this time have a lot more success.

Alan

Ffoxy said:

You know my 1 and only negative view on FIAT, T....

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Lets not go there shall we.

a1ant said:

Even in the deepest bluest nicest of seas, there's going to be a floating turd somewhere, and it looks like you swam into it!

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PMSL.....there s a moral in there somewhere I think

Frustrated Fiat Fool said:

1) After 1 year and 6 months, 16,000 miles, the radio/cd volume button fell off. Replacement cost around £5.00.

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Surely a freebie under warranty ?

Frustrated Fiat Fool said:

2) After 2 years, 21,000 miles, the power steering progressively "wears" the inside shoulders of both front tyres. Tyres require replacement even though plenty of depth/grip on the rest of the tyres. Balancing/Wheel Alignment checks have discounted any other possible reasons. Replacement cost for 2 Tyres £92.00.

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Inside shoulders do not mean the tyre needs replacing. The mot states that tread need only be minimum depth across 75% of the surface. This does not include the shoulders. Also I think 21K is pretty good going for a FWD car....Strange how you blame the power-steering, when it's usually the way people drive a power-assisted car that ruins the tyres. (stationary spinning of the wheel etc)

Frustrated Fiat Fool said:

The 2 year service appears to be nothing more than a lot of "checks".

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The 2nd year service is pretty comprehensive. The 'checks' you mention are only part of it....

Frustrated Fiat Fool said:

After 3 Years, 35,000 miles, the exhaust started to vibrate and communicate to the underside of the car body via the means of morse code. Exhaust clamp had "rusted away". I puchased a replacement clamp and fitted it myself for a cost of £1.02.

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Again I think 35K and £1.02 for an exhaust clamp is hardly something to complain about....Are you just trying to make your case look worse than it actually is?

To be honest, I'd say that Fiat were very generous to contribute to your out-of-warranty costs....They are under no obligation to do so and I know of several manufacturers who have turned down similar requests from people I know.

a1ant said:

Even in the deepest bluest nicest of seas, there's going to be a floating turd somewhere, and it looks like you swam into it!
Alan

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T14086 said:

PMSL.....there s a moral in there somewhere I think

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never swim with your mouth open?

This Bitter Pill, many thanks for your post, always healthy to hear someone else's views.

I truly believe that this Forum is a fantastic site and as i have mentioned before, without access to it, i am not sure i would have resolved some of my issues as quickly, in such a short timescale without access to it.

I have owned/purchased numerous vehicles over the last 36 years and without any doubt, this Panda, sadly, has turned out to be the worst bar none. Whilst i appreciate that some of the glitches for the vehicle could be described as "minor" I have never had so many, so often, for one vehicle. An issue every 6/7 months from 16,000 miles onwards is pretty poor, even you would have to admit that surely?

To respond to your post:

1) Yes, the Radio/Cd Volume Button was technically replaceable under warranty. However from a commercial point of view does it really make sense to make (what was then) a 150 mile round trip to the nearest Franchised Fiat Dealership to claim my "Warranty Free Radio/Cd Volume Button". Or is it more sensible to just pay around a fiver knowing that it will arrive in the post after some polite agreement with the Parts Team?

2) Having had the vehicle's tracking and steering thoroughly checked on five seperate occassions it would appear that the tyre wear can not be attributed to anything else but the mechanical set-up. Agreed, hard cornering and poor driving ability would indeed explain OUTSIDE shoulder wear but i am talking about INNER - not sure if you have missed the point here? Unless the laws of physics have changed overnight perhaps you could explain to me how the inside shoulders of any tyres, on any motorised vehicle, could wear away via poor driving ability? I'm sure that any of the Major Tyre manufacturers aswell as myself would be fascinated as to how you could possibly have a rational explanation for this phenomana?

3) The 2nd Year Service. You say that it is comprehensive, i think we will both have to agree to disagree on this point. However as a compromise, i would conceed that the second year service, could be described as a comprehensive set of checks.

4) Agreed, an exhaust clamp at £1.02 may not be something to complain about in terms of cost. However in terms of another irritation, lack of the quality of parts attached to this vehicle and personal frustration of more of MY time spent away from the office when i should be dealing with important legal matters, in my humble opinion, is indeed something to complain about.

5) As for Fiat being generous to contribute to out of warranty costs and others that have been turned down for similar requests. Put simply, ignorance of the Trade Descriptions Act and in particular the sub section that relates to an item being "fit for it's purpose within it's expected lifespan" instantly springs to mind.
It is up to each individual to arrive at their own decision as to whether to fight for their consumer rights or indeed give up at the first sign of resistance be it through a conscious decision or one based on lack of knowledge. My case correctly came to it's conclusion that all necessary steering parts were replaced as they "were not fit for purpose" and i paid for there installation. I could however have decided to install the steering items myself at no cost but felt it best to leave it to the professionals. Similarly, I could have, if necessary, have proceeded to the small claims court in the confidence of my legal rights. Gladly common sense prevailed and Fiat decided to offer repalcement parts.

As for your statement "..Are you just trying to make your case look worse than it actually is?"

Errm... No. Purely stating the disappointing facts associated with this vehicle.

I must chuckle though "This Bitter Pill", particularly when i see someone arriving at their own conclusions, however misguided, with unsubstantiated "facts" and personal opinion to bolster their argument. Both of which in a UK court of law would be overturned/thrown out on the basis that:

"Opinion is NOT Fact and it would be wise to understand the difference before stating either!"

Similarly "Ignorance is no Plea in the eyes of the Law".

Therefore, I have arrived at my own conclusion that the Fiat Panda Eleganza that i bought for my wife must clearly be a lemon (unless this is the usual quality of Fiat Panda's?) - that's life!
These things happen. I will try my best to sell it, then move on.

My thanks to all others readers who have posted relevant, well thought out rational repsonses to the statements i have made.

My apologies to any other readers of this forum for the length of this post, however i felt it necessary to respond and to clarify the difference between fact and unqualified opinion.

Regards,

FFF (Frustrated Fiat Fool)

Jai said:

never swim with your mouth open?

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:yuck:

I guess the longest ever reponse needs an even longer comeback....

Frustrated Fiat Fool said:

An issue every 6/7 months from 16,000 miles onwards is pretty poor, even you would have to admit that surely?

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I would admit that....However, in my opinion, several of the 'issues' you mention do seem rather trivial.

Frustrated Fiat Fool said:

1) Yes, the Radio/Cd Volume Button was technically replaceable under warranty. However from a commercial point of view does it really make sense to make (what was then) a 150 mile round trip to the nearest Franchised Fiat Dealership to claim my "Warranty Free Radio/Cd Volume Button". Or is it more sensible to just pay around a fiver knowing that it will arrive in the post after some polite agreement with the Parts Team?

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I mentioned the warranty because you used the fact that you had to pay £5.00 for a replacement part as a reinforcement of your argument. You clearly favour sarcastic replies, so I have to ask....Is it sensible to buy a vehicle from a manufacturer whose nearest dealer is 150 miles away?....

Frustrated Fiat Fool said:

2) Having had the vehicle's tracking and steering thoroughly checked on five seperate occassions it would appear that the tyre wear can not be attributed to anything else but the mechanical set-up.

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I never argued the point.

Frustrated Fiat Fool said:

Agreed, hard cornering and poor driving ability would indeed explain OUTSIDE shoulder wear but i am talking about INNER - not sure if you have missed the point here?

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Hard cornering also wears inner edges of tyres, although I never suggested this was the case.

Frustrated Fiat Fool said:

2Unless the laws of physics have changed overnight perhaps you could explain to me how the inside shoulders of any tyres, on any motorised vehicle, could wear away via poor driving ability? I'm sure that any of the Major Tyre manufacturers aswell as myself would be fascinated as to how you could possibly have a rational explanation for this phenomana?

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This 'phenomena' you speak of is called negative camber.

Frustrated Fiat Fool said:

i would conceed that the second year service, could be described as a comprehensive set of checks.

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Would that stand up in court? That suggests to me that no 'physical' work is carried out?....Hardly the case.

Frustrated Fiat Fool said:

4) Agreed, an exhaust clamp at £1.02 may not be something to complain about in terms of cost. However in terms of another irritation, lack of the quality of parts attached to this vehicle and personal frustration of more of MY time spent away from the office when i should be dealing with important legal matters, in my humble opinion, is indeed something to complain about.

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But surely after 3 years and 35K miles, is an exhaust clamp needing replacing really a reflection of 'lack of quality parts'?

Frustrated Fiat Fool said:

As for your statement "..Are you just trying to make your case look worse than it actually is?"

Errm... No. Purely stating the disappointing facts associated with this vehicle.

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Which are a new Volume knob, two front tyres and an exhaust clamp in 3 years....

Frustrated Fiat Fool said:

I must chuckle though "This Bitter Pill", particularly when i see someone arriving at their own conclusions, however misguided, with unsubstantiated "facts" and personal opinion to bolster their argument.

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Frustrated Fiat Fool said:

"After 2 years, 21,000 miles, the power steering progressively "wears" the inside shoulders of both front tyres."

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Is this a substantiated 'fact' or is it your personal opinion?

Frustrated Fiat Fool said:

My apologies to any other readers of this forum for the length of this post, however i felt it necessary to respond and to clarify the difference between fact and unqualified opinion.

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You would do well to try and separate the two in your original post.