Technical Veggie Panda!!

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Technical Veggie Panda!!

Joined
Jan 24, 2008
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Location
Belfast
Hi All,

with the ongoing price hike in fuel at the moment that doesnt seem to be stopping anytime in the future have any of you multijet owners thought about running your cars on vegetable oil?? Over the last few months i've been doing a bit of research into this to see if its actually feasible and given the right conversion it looks the way to go.

Apparently, diesel engines have always been designed to run on an oil of some description let it be peanut oil, veg oil etc so its not as bizzare an idea as you think. Most modern engines need modification to run on vegetable oil but the conversion only costs 1050 fully fitted by a company in Wolverhampton called Dieselveg and when you compare the price of vegetable oil 35p or so to the price of diesel...well over the pound...you wouldnt be long in making your money back on your conversion! Most cars need converted because although veg oil burns the same as diesel it can become more gloopy and viscous when cold resulting in carbon build up in the engine if not prepped properly first. The most popular conversion involves a two tank setup allowing you to run as normal on diesel til your car heats up then with a flick of a switch you can switch to veg oil when the engine is warm enough and then flick back to diesel at the end of the journey to clean the system. It seems that this company has converted alot of cars including a few Fiats and i just thought it was something different to think about! Performance they also wreckon overall is actually better as the whole system is getting more lubrication resulting in more low down grunt and less emissions. Customs arent a problem either as as of July 2007 a new legislation was passed that allows people of the uk to buy up to 2500 litres of veg oil a year without having to declare a penny of it to the taxman! They wreckon cars with Bosch fuel pumps are best suited to the conversion in oppose to the lucas cav types but im unsure as to what kind of pump the Panda has?? However, they wreckon given the proper conversion the system should work well on most cars. Dont know how you'd fare with a Fiat warranty int these circumstances mind you?? hehe. Tell me what you think and if any of you have had experience of this idea before let me know.
Steve(y)
 
As a part time courier, some of the others have cars that have run for over 100k without conversion and no addition of diesel. Bosch pumps will accept veggie oil, lucas pumps will not, pipes from the tank need to be of the right type as well, as the veggie oil is dodgy stuff and disolves some a treat leading to pump failure. Best people to talk to are not those doing the conversions but independent diesel pump engineers they give good advice. modern diesels with engine management may need a conversion to the system, but most diesels have fuel warming fitted as standard these days.
 
As per Trackdayqueen, price is quite high now and filling on your tarmac drive - don't spill a drop or you can kiss good bye to a nice drive!!
 
I believe you'll also need to change the fuel filter more frequently than Fiat recommend :D

Chris
 
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As a part time courier, some of the others have cars that have run for over 100k without conversion and no addition of diesel. Bosch pumps will accept veggie oil, lucas pumps will not, pipes from the tank need to be of the right type as well, as the veggie oil is dodgy stuff and disolves some a treat leading to pump failure. Best people to talk to are not those doing the conversions but independent diesel pump engineers they give good advice. modern diesels with engine management may need a conversion to the system, but most diesels have fuel warming fitted as standard these days.

As above, some systems will fail after time. I know someone who runs his Diesel Rover on Aldi Sunflower oil at about 85p per L!

He does get some funny looks he was telling me. You can mix it with diesel to, so you don't have to worry about draining the tank between fuel type changes.

The only problem you might have is in the winter if it gets really cold, and the fat hardens/jelly's up.

Jon.
 
It's only a few weeks since I was parked outside our local Lidl and saw a chap pouring bottle after bottle of veggie oil into his R reg Shogun - it did make me wonder a bit about how the Panda would handle it.......:):)

And does it make a difference if you use veggie or sunflower......?
 
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NO!! :eek:

Or at least I don't think so....:rolleyes:

I am sure I have read that the new common rail diesel engines will not take kindly one little bit to veg oil in the mix. New FIAT engines are all common rail. Older systems are more tolerant, AFAIK

So, I would say to proceed with caution, if at all.

TBH if you cannot afford the running costs of a MJ Panda, one questions the practicality of running a car at all. It must be about the cheapest car to run as it is, and to save c.30p per litre, and possibly damage the engine / fuel pump / whatever - seems a bit shortsighted to me.

Anyway, it'll be interesting to hear what happens, if anything, if you give it a whirl! :D
 
Personally it's not worth it at the moment, go VAT registered and the saving is totally eliminated, yes you can run Veggie oil and be VAT registered but don't be surprised if the VAT man queries how much you have used and for what. bearing in mind you'll lose some performance and fuel consumption a Panda MJ is just not worth running on veggie. As for common rail engines - they have been around for decades, it's just the way the injectors are controlled these days that enable the system to be used in automotive applications, the idea has always been there - now technology can deliver it in small enough packages.
 
The way prices have risen it's not really worth it :(

I used to run a Toyota Hilux 3.0 litre on Veg (I killed it, but that's another story !), and found the price this year climbing like a rocket.

If you are thinking of running 100% you will have 1 grumpy vehicle when cold, you may need to consider an electric fuel heater.

Your fuel filter may well need changing a few times when you start, the junk at the bottom of the tank will get dragged through.

At present you can use upto 2,500 litres a year without having to pay fuel duty, but you have to keep receipts / records for 6 years.

If you decide to try running used chip oil you need to consider the following:

1) It will need straining, or the fuel filter will clog fast
2) If it's palm oil don't bother, it's solid at room temperature
3) If meat has been cooked in it then you need to remove the fat content or have yet another filter handy.
4) If you are going the whole hog and converting the used to biodiesel make sure not to overdo the chemicals.
5) A SMALL amount of petrol - yes petrol (I would suggest up to 5 litres on a tankful), or white spirit (I would suggest a max of 1/2 litre) mixed in with the fuel can help thin it in winter - pre mix before pouring down the tank.

If you are buying bio make sure that the dealer is selling decent fuel before jumping in with both feet, there are some right rogues out there with all sorts nasties in their fuel.

Be prepared for stains where drips run down the paintwork from the filler, and I can vouch for what a sod they are to remove :bang::bang::bang:


Trev
 
How can you distory an undistructable car? lol.:eek::p

Firstly drive it through at least two feet deep muddy puddles, then try to cruise home at @ 70 mph, you will find that your radiator is now a brick as the mud from the puddles clogs up the gaps between the fins - see 1st attached picture.

Hippo never gave a warning light, just lost power, after that she didn't sound happy and eventually gave up the struggle with running 4 cylinders, and went to 3, the bottom end was well fubarred :(

She had just shy of 130,000 miles on the clock, and had run for several years on veg.

Please note that the 2.4 engines have had a checkered past with heads going :(

As you can see from the other pic I used hippo in the manner she was designed for.

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Some info a friend of mine supplied on running "bio-diesel"....

Normal derv is now 5% bio derv.

Assuming you have a 50 L tank, I would run the derv down and have the tank properly cleaned and the filter changed then just mix it 50:50 and see how you go increasing it as you go.

Taking this to not be a case as draining and cleaning a tank costs money I'd do the following.

1) Go buy a genuine fuel filter, you will probably need it.
2) Run the tank low and then put 5L of bio and 45L of normal derv in the tank.

Repeat this and increase the amount of bio by 2.5 or 5L at a time until you are running 50:50.

Do this for a few fill ups and then run the tank very low and get the fuel filter changed.

If the car feels like it's running rough or down on power in a big way before this point get the new filter fitted and be prepared to change it again.

Then start increasing the amount of bio until you are at 75% or higher if you think the car is fine with this.

In winter I'd probably not go about 50:50 as bio can wax over more easily than mineral derv. Make the percentage bio even lower if it's particularly cold.

Somebody on here runs it all the time though so they will know more.

Once you're happy replace the fuel filter twice as regularly as the service manual states.

All IMHO and at your own risk of course.

Chris
 
I used to have a 1.8TD Mondeo that I ran on vegetable oil. It cost about 52p a litre (I didn't declare it's use to the taxman) however I used a 50/50 mix of oil and diesel. I found the car to perform better and was a lot smoother. However! Be warned I got greedy and put 100% oil in and it completely destroyed the engine :-( All modern diesels are designed to run on some slight blend of vegetable oil. If you're not greedy and maybe use 10% oil and 90% diesel you may make a small saving at the pumps.
 
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