Hello,

Since this is my 1st post, I want to congratulate every user for making this such a nice place to be in. I've been visiting the Panda corner for a few weeks now and I've found it to be very informative and generally useful, with a friendly feel to it.

My girlfriend got a '92 750 CLX for Xmas and... well, lets just say that I'm now falling in love with a car that I've always looked down to (especially after having 3 old school Fiats in the family). It has covered almost 79k kms (about 49k miles) and it actually looks and drives quite well! Its black, has a 5 speed gbox, 155/65 R13 tyres, factory tinted glass and front grille inserted extra high beam lamps. Nice...

The thing is I expected it to have a very low fuel consumption... which isn't happening. We're getting about 7,5 L/100 kms @ 80 to 100 km/h. I wonder if theres any common problem that might lead to those exaggerated figures... the car has had the oil and filter, air filter and fuel filter replaced and the sparkplugs looked OK. The CO has also been set up before she got the car. Any help would be thoroughly appreciated! Especially coz with this sort of fuel consumption, the Panda will be staying home more than we'd like it to. After all, its cheaper to go places in my Fiesta mk4 D [V]

Goncalo D.

got a brake sticking on or dragging slightly?

The Fiat Cinquecento
Fun While It Runs

Popped vacuum advance unit, or very heavy right foot

The vacuum advance unit is on the side of the distributor.
It has a thin black rubber pipe going to the back of the carburettor ( or throttle body, of it has fuel injection).

Unplug the pipe from the back of the carburettor and see if you can blow through it - you can suck if you want to inhale petrol fumes - if you can, it's broken.
If not it's OK.

If broken the module is available separately, and is a little bit fiddly to fit.
The iginition timing should be checked after refitting.

HTH

Originally posted by John H
Popped vacuum advance unit, or very heavy right foot

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I was only doing 50 mph, officer... honest!

Seriously now, I'd like to keep my drivers pride intact and think theres actually some problem causing the astonishingly high fuel consumption of the smallest member of the Fire family. I'll have a look at it ASAP and I'll definitely try not to inhale (hmmm... sounds familiar).

Regarding the sticking brakes, I'm sure its not a caliper or the respective disc would be visibly hot after stopping, I imagine. I'll have to raise the car and check the back wheels for drag.

Anyway, and since you bring that up, braking is the cars weakest point. I've been doing a bit of background reading and someone stated that you should be able to lock the fronts on the dry (not that one would want to, but seems like a good way of evaluating the cars braking power) and this Panda simply won't do it. It will pace itself to a halt, but it won't be rushed into it. The pedal also feels spongy and requires quite a bit of pressure (and travel) to actually start braking. I know they don't have a servo, but I think this is a bit OTT. I've thought about getting some new brake fluid in and giving them a nice bleed, but I've never come across this type of braking system, which makes me wonder if the bleeding sequence is similar to others. I'm ordering a Haynes, but they usually take up to a month to get here and I don't feel comfortable having the girl driving around with almost no brakes in a city where most ppl drive like nutters.

Thanks for all the help, ppl!

Goncalo D., the portuguese Panda co-driver

Take the car for a good run on M/way or main road and try to avoid heavy brake use then pull over and feel the wheels. If they`re hot you`ve got a sticking brake.

Dave

Originally posted by DaveHall
try to avoid heavy brake use then pull over

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The thing is if I avoid heavy braking, I won't be able to pull over

Seriously now, I understood what u meant and I will definitely be doing that. Thanks for the input, I'll let you all know how it goes!

Goncalo D.

Originally posted by voorhas

Anyway, and since you bring that up, braking is the cars weakest point. I've been doing a bit of background reading and someone stated that you should be able to lock the fronts on the dry (not that one would want to, but seems like a good way of evaluating the cars braking power) and this Panda simply won't do it.

Click to expand...

That would probably be me.

It's common on neglected Pandas for the brake calipers to corrode onto the metalwork they are supposed to slide on.

You end up with half braking power, as the piston pushes on one pad.
The other pad should be pulled onto the disk using the reaction, and the sliding of the caliper, but doesn't because of the corrosion.

If you take the caliper off, as you would to change the pads, you will see the bits that should slide. Give those bits a good clean up, and coat them with some copper based grease.

You need disks which aren't corroded up, and some good pads.
The FIAT ones are too hard.
Bosch are OK, as are Pagid.
I'm sure there are others people can recommend - but I've used those and they're OK.

The brakes still need a healthy push to produce an "emergency stop", but they're OK.

Hello,

Update on the Panda: I've been working on it 2day and I've found out that the brake fluid looks like its been there all the cars life, the pads don't have more than 1 or 1,5 mm left on them and after driving the car 2day I've also found out that the discs were warped... so I guess that the little Fiat has plenty of reasons for not stopping properly after all. Just a note: the calipers are very different from any caliper I've worked on... any special tricks or pieces of advice I should hear b4 changing the pads this friday?

The vacuum advance unit seems to be working properly and the fuel consumption seems to be dropping... maybe the car just needed a few miles on its wheels after being stopped for so long!

Thanks for everybodies helpful comments.. I'll keep you posted on my... Italian Job

Goncalo D.

Glad things are starting to work out
Just a little silly thing on your fuel consumption, don't forget that you don't count the first visit to the petrol station in your calculations unless you got the car with a full tank. I nearly had a heart attack first time I worked mine out until I realised what I had done.

Dave.

Marea 2.0 20v
FIATcentral window sticker
Blue gaiters, Blue sidelights, Blue interior lights, Blue lacquer on engine, feeling blue
Ecotek fitted, removed and waiting for warm weather
So much to do, so little time.... and Totally Skint!!

Originally posted by voorhas
Hello,

Update on the Panda: I've been working on it 2day and I've found out that the brake fluid looks like its been there all the cars life, the pads don't have more than 1 or 1,5 mm left on them and after driving the car 2day I've also found out that the discs were warped... so I guess that the little Fiat has plenty of reasons for not stopping properly after all. Just a note: the calipers are very different from any caliper I've worked on... any special tricks or pieces of advice I should hear b4 changing the pads this friday?

Goncalo D.

Click to expand...

They're quite simple, once you see how it all fits together:

there is a small spring clip at the back, top and bottom, which hold the top and bottom "locking blocks" in place.

Pull out the spring clips with long nose pliers.
Pull out the locking blocks (steel pieces which locate between the caliper and its support bracket): they slide back towards you.
The caliper will now pull off towards the front of the car: tie it up to the strut/spring so it doesn't hang on the hydraulic hose.
The pads will then come off (make a note of how the anti-rattle springs fit).

If the disks are at all suspect, there are a couple of bolts around the back of the support bracket to undo, and also the wheel locating peg and a bolt to remove - in between the wheel bolt holes on the hub - which hold the disk on.

The surfaces of the (steel) locking blocks which the caliper slides on need to be nice and smooth, as do their matching surfaces on the caliper.
Also the channels the pad ends locate in need to be clean too.

When those surfaces are prepared, you need to use some high temperature grease (Copper ease is a UK brand) on them to try and stop the corrosion forming.

When you push the piston back into the caliper, watch out for the fluid level in the master cylinder.

Usual rules apply about the dust from brakes.


HTH


John H

Wow... a step by step guide Guess thats all one can ask for. Thanks for the input, it will surely make matters easier! I've had the locking blocks out yesterday to see their general condition and I've given them a good clean and covered them in a thin layer of copper grease, so it should all go nice and smoothly 2morrow... weather allowing. I think I'm beggining to enjoy the whole maintenance experience! I had a look around and the car seems well but very simply built, which makes it an ideal project for the not so competent mechanici trying to get a bit more practice (such as myself).

Goncalo D.

One (obvious) thing I forgot to mention - if you get new disks, be sure to clean all the protective (greasy) coating off the surface - it'll mess up the new pads if you don't.

Agreed, the basic Panda is quite nice to work on: reasonable ammount of room around things (especially under the bonnet), and it's fairly simple too


John H

Heheheeh... I've done the discs on my Fiesta a couple of times, so I'm aware of the presence of the nasty grease... it takes forever to get it off properly!

Has anyone had experience with ATE braking equipment? At 30 euro for the discs and the pads, I feel deeply inclined to get them, so if you feel I shouldn't, speak now... or forever hold your peace

Goncalo D.

A bit of celly thinners brings the grease right off. I just thought I'D mention so people don't sit there for hours, scrubbing there discs clean!!!

SIX OF ONE!
AND HALF A DOZEN OF THE BEAST!

Progress info: the weather finally allowed me to carry out my little project and the Panda now has a new set of pads, discs and braking fluid, courtesy of ATE. Its all still bedding so its impossible to say how effective they will be once they reach full efficiency, but I can already vouch for the massive difference in pedal feel because of the fluid change! Generally speaking, it was very straightforward... expect maybe for the awkward upper mounting point of the caliper.

Whats worrying me is the extremely uneven wear of the old pads... the differences are up to 3 mm between pads on the same caliper, which seems like alot. I've given the calipers a good cleaning and covered all the relevant parts in a thin layer of copper grease... guess that only time will tell if the calipers are still up for the job.

Goncalo D.

Difference in pad wear is down to the sliding caliper not sliding:
corroded up - hence all the cleaning, and "copper ease" on reassembly.

It's the visible sign of 50% braking effort.

Think what it does to your wheel bearings too[xx(]

300 km on the new material and the car brakes notoriously better than b4 but it still needs a big push in the panic pedal to bring it to a halt swiftly... not too reassuring, especially taking into consideration its being driven by my totally unexperienced (I'm talking about her driving skills, b4 any of u comment on that) girlfriend... is there any easy way of putting a servo on it? I've been reading about using the 4x4 panda stuff, but those are extremely rare over here so I'd be a very happy person if you Panda gurus would tell me if I can get away with Y10 stuff for the conversion.

Regarding the corrosion issue, I couldn't spot any... it had tons of brake dust on it but no visible signs of any type of material deterioration. After the cleaning, they slid in and out very smoothly so lets be positive and think that it was the aforementioned brake dust accumulation or the lack of lubricant that hindered the calipers movement.

Goncalo D.

Perhaps I have heavy feet... but I find the wheels locking up - especially in the wet - the biggest issue when trying to stop quickly.

That said, a servo system has an obvious advantage in terms of effort required.

Regarding Y10 parts - I haven't done a conversion, so I can't honestly say it will all fit. But if you do have access to a Y10 for parts, and you want to really sort the brakes out, the Y10 has bigger disks and a different caliper arrangement as well as the servo.

Another think to consider is parts from a later (94? on) Panda:
AFAIK they were all servo-ed after then (UK spec was).
Consider also parts from a CVT (auto) Panda, as they had bigger brakes and servo to overcome the lack of engine braking.

Then think about the work in fitting the servo/master cylinder before you buy anything - AIUI not an easy job.


Maybe you should buy her some Doc Martens :I


John H

P.S. Regarding the corrosion, I'm talking about where the alloy caliper and the steel locking pins touch: dissimilar metals in a sometimes wet, hot/cold environment, with virtually no relative movement:
couldn't be better for corrosion/sticking together.
Rather than the piston in the cylinder, which also needs to move.

Originally posted by John H
Another think to consider is parts from a later (94? on) Panda:
AFAIK they were all servo-ed after then (UK spec was).

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Quite right John. UK Pandas from February '93 had servo as standard, so yours just missed out B)

I've been looking around and apparently the ony Y10s with bigger discs were the turbo version (which is even rarer than the 4x4 Panda) and the 1.3 GT ie... that might be a good starting point. Has anyone tried to upgrade their braking system with bigger discs and calipers using the standard 4 inch wide wheels? Because the standard calipers sit so close to them its almost scary.

I really don't like to see a girl in Doc Martens... but your capacity to work around problems in an immaginative way is quite impressive!

I'm going to look around and try to find a crashed Y10, I guess. Women...

Goncalo D.