Hello everyone, this is a little thread for my written college project. For my project, I have to create a rally car specification for a certain rally championship. I chose the ASWMC sealed stage 1.0-1.4 2wd championship, so this gives me the potential to use a Fiat Panda mk2 as a basis and engine swap it to make it more competitive within the championship. Just so everyone knows, this is a written project, and not one that I am actually carrying out with the college (unfortunately)

This thread will act as a place I can bounce off any ideas with you guys, and get help if needed.

My current idea is to start with a Fiat Panda 999cc 5 speed and then find a suitable engine to swap. From my research, it looks like the 1242cc and 1368cc fire engines are both good contenders, and that, from what I've seen so far, they will bolt into the bay to the 5 speed with relative ease re-using the engine mounts from the 999cc.

My question to all of you is that is this true and they are swap-able without any/many other changes? Also, which engine (and what car it being from) would be best? I see that various Fiat Puntos and newer Pandas had these 1.2 and 1.4 engines, so availability may not be too bad, which is one thing I need to take into account for my written project.

Most the other things such as the roll cage I will be considering and researching externally and not specifically to the Panda, but one thing I will definitely need to look into is the brakes. After having a look, it seems the Selecta has upgraded brakes so that might be something to consider for the project as well! If anyone has any ideas then please let me know. Cheers all!

FDNY21 said:

From my research, it looks like the 1242cc and 1368cc fire engines are both good contenders, and that, from what I've seen so far, they will bolt into the bay to the 5 speed with relative ease re-using the engine mounts from the 999cc.

My question to all of you is that is this true and they are swap-able without any/many other changes? Also, which engine (and what car it being from) would be best? I see that various Fiat Puntos and newer Pandas had these 1.2 and 1.4 engines, so availability may not be too bad, which is one thing I need to take into account for my written project.

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I've thought that the 8v 1242 Fire in my '05 Punto workhorse would serve as a good replacement for 999 Fire in Pandani if the need should arrise in the far future. Wouldn't mind knowing if an engine swap is indeed as simple as some have suggested, especially given that my 1000CL Panda is a 4 speed?

I'm wanting to keep Pandani as original as possible but realise sometimes alternatives have to be considered and the 1242 Fire is attractive given that the 999cc engines will be harder to obtain in the future.

Pandani said:

I've thought that the 8v 1242 Fire in my '05 Punto workhorse would serve as a good replacement for 999 Fire in Pandani if the need should arrise in the far future. Wouldn't mind knowing if an engine swap is indeed as simple as some have suggested, especially given that my 1000CL Panda is a 4 speed?

I'm wanting to keep Pandani as original as possible but realise sometimes alternatives have to be considered and the 1242 Fire is attractive given that the 999cc engines will be harder to obtain in the future.

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Seems my project may help you out as well then if you can get this info There's a guide on the Facebook group by blu that talks about the 1.2 and the engine has been adopted by several Panderers so it's likely that it may be almost a "direct fit" so to speak. Just re-use the engine mounts from the 999 and bolt it up and hopefully it's as easy as that but thought I'd check!

The 1242cc would be my choice for road but with the rally project the championship will allow up to 1.4. Because of this, most the other cars will run 1.3-1.4 to be the most competitive, so it would be good to have the 1.4 swapped but I haven't heard so much about that one as compared to the 1242!

May be worth speaking g to panda1408 who has just done a conversion with a new engine. You need to ensure that if it's fly by wire throttle to think about the throttle position sender.

For 'quick' and 'easy' swap a Mk1 Punto P60 engine is simple enough. Could even keep the carb if you wanted.

Freebo said:

May be worth speaking g to panda1408 who has just done a conversion with a new engine. You need to ensure that if it's fly by wire throttle to think about the throttle position sender.

For 'quick' and 'easy' swap a Mk1 Punto P60 engine is simple enough. Could even keep the carb if you wanted.

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I'll be sure to mention fly by wire in the write up, cheers. Got a month or two to collate all the data I need so plenty of time.

I believe the P60 is the 1242 8v spi? Would be pretty good and an improvement on the 999 for sure. Wondering how a 1.4 would go though as that would likely be more competitive. Worth looking into - cheers for the info

Freebo said:

For 'quick' and 'easy' swap a Mk1 Punto P60 engine is simple enough. Could even keep the carb if you wanted.

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This is more my style and worth bearing in mind for when the time comes. 76k miles on Pandani with only piston slap on cold start, not even any oil consumption so it will be many years before a transplant should be necessary.

Owen,


Please see attached pdf file, it is original Italian technical regulation for Panda Cup 2015, not sure how good your Italian is but seem to be good moment for you to start learning the panda basics.


Unfortunately it's not exactly what you're after but hope some bits will be helpful.


Panda Cup

kolza said:

Owen,


Please see attached pdf file, it is original Italian technical regulation for Panda Cup 2015, not sure how good your Italian is but seem to be good moment for you to start learning the panda basics.


Unfortunately it's not exactly what you're after but hope some bits will be helpful.


Panda Cup
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gb78UyBlSc0

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Thanks for the pdf Jacob, my Italian is pretty poor so I had it translated online and I've got the gist of it. I have not heard of this Cup before so it's an interesting read and I'll be sure to reference it in my project.

By the look of it, the Panda Cup wants this relatively stock - only 2wd allowed (including Marbella), no 4x4, any of the related Panda engines allowed up to 1.1.

The ASWMC doesn't have any stringent regulations on their website as you have to obtain a special yearbook that I don't have to see exact details, but my college project is quite loose so what they advertise on the internet is adequate proof. Here is the online bit:


So I've gone for the lower class, up to 1400cc (and looking at competitor cars, nobody has less than 1.0, as to be competitive in the class). So, to make the Panda even more competitive, do you think the 1.4 would be almost a direct swap?

Cheers!

It would be combination of few parts from various engines.
1.4 bottom end, 1.2 head etc.

Make sure you read the bible thread on 16v engines into a Panda.

https://www.fiatforum.com/panda-classic/119200-how-fit-16v-fire-engine-panda.html

Owen, what events would your car be competing in? It's worth considering that if it's a certain type of surface or route that you have knowledge of, rally specifications can allow the use of high lift cams, gas flowed cylinder heads, vernier pulleys and such like to increase power whilst allowing the engine to remain visually 'stock' small modifications like these can make a BIG difference to torque especially on 16v engines.

Edit: Contact www.msauk.org if you can't find out the specifics you need to conform with your groups requirements through your local MSC

kolza said:

It would be combination of few parts from various engines.
1.4 bottom end, 1.2 head etc.

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Ah, I see. It seems the 1.2 is a much more common upgrade. Would the 1.4 bottom end be much more beneficial as opposed to the straight swap with the 1.2? If it's not beneficial to use it then I can justify that in the write up, and just go for the 1.2. Luckily there's lots of guides for the 1.2, but I didn't see so much about the 1.4. I need statistics (output etc) so by having a variation of the 2 engines may also make it harder to get pinpointed statistics for the write up?

Palio said:

Make sure you read the bible thread on 16v engines into a Panda.

https://www.fiatforum.com/panda-classic/119200-how-fit-16v-fire-engine-panda.html

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Cheers Palio, that really is a bible thread - now I have an entire 1.2 swap guide ready to write about! This will be great to research from for the write up, thank you.

Just need to see if the 1.4 bottom end is beneficial or not at this point, and then justify that either way for the write up

AndyPanda4x4 said:

Owen, what events would your car be competing in? It's worth considering that if it's a certain type of surface or route that you have knowledge of, rally specifications can allow the use of high lift cams, gas flowed cylinder heads, vernier pulleys and such like to increase power whilst allowing the engine to remain visually 'stock' small modifications like these can make a BIG difference to torque especially on 16v engines.

Edit: Contact www.msauk.org if you can't find out the specifics you need to conform with your groups requirements through your local MSC

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Andy, the championship is the ASWMC sealed stage as seen here: http://www.aswmc.org.uk/sealedstage.php

The surface is at least 80% tarmac/concrete according to the regs.

If the 1.2 16v is used then I assume some of those small modifications may be used? I'm not sure, but I will email the ASWMC rally team to see if they have more detailed requirements

Obviously all in theory, but it would be useful to know you could use small modifications to up the output and gain the edge

As this is a written college project and I'm a serial panda and race car builder may I offer the following strong hints for research

Fully define the budget and series regulation.

Engine hydraulic verses solid tappets

brake options - wheels size - tyre options - bodywork regs

maintaining mechanical grip

safety - series regs - msa regs

steering

fuel tank, exhaust and sump protection.

panda-sport said:

As this is a written college project and I'm a serial panda and race car builder may I offer the following strong hints for research

Fully define the budget and series regulation.

Engine hydraulic verses solid tappets

brake options - wheels size - tyre options - bodywork regs

maintaining mechanical grip

safety - series regs - msa regs

steering

fuel tank, exhaust and sump protection.

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As for the regulations, I've asked ASWMC for a list of the full details as the website regulations only detail the cc and forced induction limitations for each class. ASWMC group up to 1.4 is what I've got so far. There's a list of other cars in the class as well on their website.

Cinq/Sei alloys will probably be used, or just steels. My lecturer that is leading the project happens to have a Cinquecento Sporting rally car so that's handy from a tyre option viewpoint as well. I'll have to ask him about that For an at least 80% tarmac/concrete stage selection, I shouldn't have to worry about finding massive knobbly tyres for extreme conditions though.

Brakes could be taken from the Selecta. Upgraded compared to a standard Panda, but also not massive and too big for the wheel selection. Will look into any other cars that may be able to lend theirs, but that's my thinking so far.

Safety wise, bucket seats with harnesses and a full roll cage definitely. I'll research those in the coming weeks. Car will be stripped out (not that there's much to take anyway ).

Steering, uh... a nice OMP or Momo steering wheel? Guards for the sump/exhaust/fuel tank can be done. Some nice metal plates will do the trick.

The budget is undecided really, I've only just started the project properly so I've looked at the car and the engine choices first. The 1.2 is looking up, but if I could get a 1.4 then that would make it more competitive for the championship, still not sure how feasible it is yet though so I'll see what thoughts everyone else has there

So, what next: I need to find out more about the possibility of a 1.4 in a Panda and what needs to be done to get it in there, look at potential brakes options and tyres options, and also look at suspension.

Would it be advisable to change the suspension setup for a sealed stage championship? There's not lots of jumps and dirt so doesn't need endless travel, but it's something worth considering as well.

The 1.4 will fit onto the standard gearbox and mounts but that's where the simplicity ends. Almost everything else needs to be changed and becomes more complicated.

All doable but it all depends on budget and what route you want to take, for example do you want to run the 1.4 on the original Fiat electrics or use an aftermarket ECU set up? An aftermarket setup would actually simplify things but would increase costs considerably.

You also need to consider whether a standard gearbox is up to the job when used competitively, I think a limited slip diff would be a must and as far as I know that's not possible in a Panda box.

FDNY21 said:

The budget is undecided really, I've only just started the project properly so I've looked at the car and the engine choices first.

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You need to decide on a proposed budget before looking at car or engine. It makes a big difference in options.

Tesco value £10,000
Budget £20,000
Mid £30,000
Sensible £40,000
Pro £100,000+

Sounds like a good project, mind to say what the overall course is for? How much credit will this project add? Suggest you keep track of how long jobs might take and what tools. Useful for project planning and essential for making priority decisions once the race season starts. Depends on how much you need to emulate a real event.
The most professional teams will have defined job sheets and part / tool locations so things don't get lost or forgotten, and so they can keep to tight schedules in all conditions.

panda-sport said:

You need to decide on a proposed budget before looking at car or engine. It makes a big difference in options.

Tesco value £10,000
Budget £20,000
Mid £30,000
Sensible £40,000
Pro £100,000+

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The car and the engine wouldn't cost an overly large sum, so going budget may be possible. The championship isn't high level so going budget may not be bad. I could aim to get everything under 10 or 10k, and if it goes over then I just say why in the project and review it. As long as I justify everything, I get the mark

andydiver said:

Sounds like a good project, mind to say what the overall course is for? How much credit will this project add? Suggest you keep track of how long jobs might take and what tools. Useful for project planning and essential for making priority decisions once the race season starts. Depends on how much you need to emulate a real event.
The most professional teams will have defined job sheets and part / tool locations so things don't get lost or forgotten, and so they can keep to tight schedules in all conditions.

Click to expand...

The overall course is Motorsport Engineering, I finish the project in a few months but this is bearing in mind my other topics; maths, electronics, competition vehicle prep, health and safety, workshop, fault finding, drawing and CAD, engine tech and driveline tech.

Each of those topics (and any others that I may have forgot) adds a certain amount of points depending on if you pass, get a merit or get a distinction. At the end, you get one mark but it can vary (could be PPP for pass pass pass, all the way up to D*D*D* for all distinctions, and everything in between). I'm on course for the highest grade so far (1 1/2 years in, 1/2 year to go)!

My project leader has said that my project with the rally car is much bigger than most everyone else's ideas, so it doesn't need to be detailed with every nut, bolt and tool. Really, I just need to choose the championship, the car, what will be converted, health and safety considerations and things like that, and then I need to create a final sheet that details the build time limits over a period of time and the final cost. Most importantly for the project, everything has to be justified and reviewed at the end. So, even if the project is an utter fail, you can still get a distinction if you justified everything and reviewed at the end, knowing what direction you should have gone instead.

panda1408 said:

The 1.4 will fit onto the standard gearbox and mounts but that's where the simplicity ends. Almost everything else needs to be changed and becomes more complicated.

All doable but it all depends on budget and what route you want to take, for example do you want to run the 1.4 on the original Fiat electrics or use an aftermarket ECU set up? An aftermarket setup would actually simplify things but would increase costs considerably.

You also need to consider whether a standard gearbox is up to the job when used competitively, I think a limited slip diff would be a must and as far as I know that's not possible in a Panda box.

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Thanks for the info. If the limited slip is not possible, would that mean that a custom gearbox would have to be made? If so, and the electrics and everything else had to be changed, then it wouldn't be feasible for the project. That's fine, as long as I can justify my reasons as to not using it.

I think that because the championship is relatively low level, it wouldn't be worth going all out on upgrading absolutely everything. From a project view point, it may be a lot of work to research while doing all of my other assignments as well.

The 1.2 may be the best idea then, or... just throwing an idea out there... 999cc turbo? 1.2 turbo wouldn't be allowed in the championship unless I joined the 1.4 to 1.8 (or whichever it was). I can't see much about a turbo bar this relatively low scale thread from over a decade ago: https://www.fiatforum.com/lets-talk-fiat/14831-999cc-fire-turbo-kit-who-s-interested.html

This may present a problem in finding information then, and for the project I will need to find written information to take my research from.

You would be looking at moving to a Punto or similar box which LSDs are available to fit.

Whatever bigger engine you want to fit it's going to involve modification to the electrics if you want it to run to its full potential. Depending on exactly what engine you use dictates what is actually needed to be done. Turbos mean custom manifolds and plenty of other extra things, and you would have to go to an aftermarket ECU to get it running right.