Took the Trials Panda for its MOT today (think it's been off the road for a few years before I got it). I'd done a lot of work over the last month or so (brakes, welding, lights, hazards, windscreen, horn, removing 100kg ballast(!), exhaust and manifold leaks, headlight repair).

Well.............it failed, but only on 3 things, and none of them were things I worked on. So I see that as a virtual pass. Failure sheet:
- Rear tyres incorrectly fitted (they may be directional, didn't check). Easy to swap.
- Driver's seat insecure (this was a surprise - to check on daylight)
- Emissions.

Now the emissions will be a challenge. The car is a 93 Parade but has a 1242 Punto injection engine fitted. Injection warning light goes out OK. Have changed air filter and will give a general service, but otherwise what should I focus on? Garage suggested Cat may be goosed (great turn of phrase). I may have a spare but it will mean redesigning exhaust. Any ideas before I go there?

Thanks

David

Did you get it red hot before they did the emissions test & was it done straight away? On its last mot Mum's old Punto failed spectacularly on emissions (first time in 15 years) - garage said the cat was knackered - I told her to thrash it round at which point it read zero on the CO (or whatever it is) & the tester said he'd never seen anything like it!! The Coupe is a pig to get through the emissions but it's perfect if you can get the cat working properly.

If it's not been used much and hasn't had a really good run, that's worth a try at least, as the Punto 1242 needs a good blast.

Edit: also can it get away with a non cat test? See the project Panda thread - yours should be similar and may qualify for the non cat test if it fails. :idea:

Have you fitted the engine? If you didn't its possible the person who did fitted a CAT which they had knocked the innards out of? In which case it won't be doing anything to help the emissions.

Otherwise I would try a good service, maybe some CAT cleaner you add to the fuel and good run to get the engine and CAT up to temp just before you take it for a retest. If still no good then it could be the CAT or probably the lambda sensor, if you find someone with the right diagnostic machine you should be able to get a reading from the lambda which will give you an idea if it is working or not.

I would second both the above; and -- maybe in lieu of cat cleaner (although that worked for Hal...) -- just shove a tankful of good super unleaded (Shell V-Power Nitro+ is my current medicine of choice...) through it (although it may work out just as expensive). :idea:

panda1408: would the lambda not cause the injection light to come on -- or are the earlier ones not as 'sensitive' (for which, read "moody"...) as the ones in the later 16v (i.e. in my Punto...)?

Thanks both. Shows how rusty I am on this new fangled early 90s technology. Engine hasn't been run at anything othet than idle since last summer, and then it just did 1 day (offroad), mostly in first gear and idling. I drove like a nervous granny the 2 miles to the test centre as it was the first time on the road. Clearly I need to man up and give it some welly next time, and a good service beforehand. Otherwise it's a Cat swap.
Palio, I presume it will need a Cat test as the original 93 Parade had a 'manicat' I think. I may have one in the depths of the garage if I need to use it.

aquamarine said:

Thanks both. Shows how rusty I am on this new fangled early 90s technology. Engine hasn't been run at anything othet than idle since last summer, and then it just did 1 day (offroad), mostly in first gear and idling. I drove like a nervous granny the 2 miles to the test centre as it was the first time on the road. Clearly I need to man up and give it some welly next time, and a good service beforehand. Otherwise it's a Cat swap.
Palio, I presume it will need a Cat test as the original 93 Parade had a 'manicat' I think. I may have one in the depths of the garage if I need to use it.

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You need to have a look at the flow charts in the testers manual. The thread is actually "to cat or not to cat" sorry, I couldn't find it earlier! Both my tester and Vern's have agreed that Panto will fail the cat test (as there will be no cat), and they then follow the flow chart (but this had to be pointed out to them). They get to the point that says can an exact match be found - the answer is no, coz the Panda never had a Punto engine - it then apparently qualifies for the non cat test. Follow the flow charts in the mot manual & see if you agree. This is only valid for a short period when cat's first came in, which falls into the age of our Panda's conveniently!

Edit: from what you've just said, I'd bet that your problem is lack of Italian driving though. Bolt down that dodgy seat & put your foot down!

homeward said:

panda1408: would the lambda not cause the injection light to come on -- or are the earlier ones not as 'sensitive' (for which, read "moody"...) as the ones in the later 16v (i.e. in my Punto...)?

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You would think so in most cases, but its still worth checking it as it could be working but be responding to the changes in fuel mixture too slowly which means the ECU will get an input that it thinks is correct, but is actually not.

Edit: I do agree with Gavin though, unless the reading is way out, a good old Italian tune up sounds like it should do the trick!

Gavin and Freddy have covered this very nicely, I can only add my good luck wishes.

Palio said:

Edit: also can it get away with a non cat test? See the project Panda thread - yours should be similar and may qualify for the non cat test if it fails. :idea:

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Being a '93 I'd expect it to need a CAT test regardless of engine it has since when the car was made it was mandatory. I think that's how it works anyway....

Didge3 said:

Being a '93 I'd expect it to need a CAT test regardless of engine it has since when the car was made it was mandatory. I think that's how it works anyway....

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You'd expect so wouldn't you, and that's what the tester's seem to think until they check. This isn't, however, how I read the rules. Have a look at this thread:

https://www.fiatforum.com/panda-classic/310024-cat-not-cat.html

What do you think?

Palio said:

You'd expect so wouldn't you, and that's what the tester's seem to think until they check. This isn't, however, how I read the rules. Have a look at this thread:

https://www.fiatforum.com/panda-classic/310024-cat-not-cat.html

What do you think?

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Well its all a bit vague and confusing. I shall have to be aware of this if I ever change Char's engine, shes '92 with pre-cat tests at the moment and I hope she can stay that way...

Thanks guys for the contributions so far - this forum is an amazing resource. :worship:

Now have the detailed fail sheet and can add some detail to the emissions. Looks extremely high on CO but OK on HC. Does this shed any further light?

Fast Idle
CO Level 0.62% (test limit 0.30%) - FAIL
HC Level 49ppm (test limit 200ppm) - PASS
Lambda 1.03 (test limits 0.97-1.03) - PASS

Second Fast Idle Test
CO Level 0.50%
HC Level 53ppm
Lambda 1.02%

Natural Idle Test
CO Level 0.98% (max 0.35%)

I replaced the air filter pre-test, will do plugs and oil today as were on my list anyway. Do we still reckon a good Italian thrashing will be enough?

Didge3 said:

Well its all a bit vague and confusing. I shall have to be aware of this if I ever change Char's engine, shes '92 with pre-cat tests at the moment and I hope she can stay that way...

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Exactly - just the way I like it when dealing with red tape........

Does Char have a cat? If not she will never need it - the test is on the older of the car or engine - you could put a 2014 engine in a 1990 Panda and it still has a non-cat test.

aquamarine said:

Thanks guys for the contributions so far - this forum is an amazing resource. :worship:

Now have the detailed fail sheet and can add some detail to the emissions. Looks extremely high on CO but OK on HC. Does this shed any further light?

Fast Idle
CO Level 0.62% (test limit 0.30%) - FAIL
HC Level 49ppm (test limit 200ppm) - PASS
Lambda 1.03 (test limits 0.97-1.03) - PASS

Second Fast Idle Test
CO Level 0.50%
HC Level 53ppm
Lambda 1.02%

Natural Idle Test
CO Level 0.98% (max 0.35%)

I replaced the air filter pre-test, will do plugs and oil today as were on my list anyway. Do we still reckon a good Italian thrashing will be enough?

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I'm coming from a very non technical viewpoint. The Punto and Coupe both failed spectacularly on the CO level & then passed with more or less zero (exactly zero for the Punto! ) when the cat was up to temp. Can you go for a really long blast on the way & ask them to just test that for you?

I'd bet you a couple of pints it would sort it.........

aquamarine said:

- Driver's seat insecure (this was a surprise - to check on daylight)

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Seem to remember there was a spate of these failures when the seat became a testable item a couple of years ago on seats that were functioning exactly as intended, but normally show a bit of play anyway. You might well find your seat's fine. Don't know where you go from there though.

firstcar-Y10 said:

Seem to remember there was a spate of these failures when the seat became a testable item a couple of years ago on seats that were functioning exactly as intended, but normally show a bit of play anyway. You might well find your seat's fine. Don't know where you go from there though.

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Yes I think you're right.

If it is, get the tester to show you & which part of the manual he's using (it's all specific - you can't just fail it coz you don't like it). If he won't accept it's as intended you can appeal (that might be enough to swing it if you tell him) and/or go to another mot station. If he's failed it on something that is as intended it may just be a mistake, so speaking to them politely always helps.

firstcar-Y10 said:

Seem to remember there was a spate of these failures when the seat became a testable item a couple of years ago on seats that were functioning exactly as intended, but normally show a bit of play anyway. You might well find your seat's fine. Don't know where you go from there though.

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I had this failure for the reasons you give. You can put (larger) rubber spacer blocks on the underside framework of the seat so that when it is returned to the runners, they are sandwiched. Stops most of any rattling that might be making tester nervous.

About the emissions
Looks like lambda is fine and HC and in fact only a small fail on CO. Like others in this thread, I believe it will pass with a thrash. There is nothing wrong with the engine and setup with those numbers IMO.

About cats
Your car does need this type of early cat test since it came with a cat fitted. Basically, the distinction is whether the car had a carb or injection, regardless of year. Although rules about some types of car (particularly modded) are grey, in reality you will struggle to find an MOT tester who will give you the time of day. Appeasement is better than confrontation with 99% of them.

Just back from a return trip to the MOT centre. Still at .60r CO level, but the run to the test centre is short (even taking as long a route as I could justify if stopped!). Have now put Cataclean in the tank too.

Will try again on Saturday, but having read Palio's "to cat or not to cat" thread I may take along the flowcharts. Garage are very helpful, so will keep fingers crossed!

aquamarine said:

Just back from a return trip to the MOT centre. Still at .60r CO level, but the run to the test centre is short (even taking as long a route as I could justify if stopped!). Have now put Cataclean in the tank too.

Will try again on Saturday, but having read Palio's "to cat or not to cat" thread I may take along the flowcharts. Garage are very helpful, so will keep fingers crossed!

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Can't you take a motorway diversion? There doesn't actually seem to be a limit to the distance taken to a pre booked mot - that's definitely a loophole, but it would be interesting to debate a trip from Liverpool to my mot tester in Bucks for example! My trip is 30 miles from lockups - I always make sure it's prebooked though as I don't want a Sorn fine!!

Would be very keen to get an opinion even if it doesn't need to go down that route. If we have 3 different mot testers agreeing (we have one in Bucks & one in Hampshire at present - though mine was so long ago I'd have to go through it all again ), then that's looking good for any similar cars.