Ducato Ducato 2.3 multijet newbie
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Ducato Ducato 2.3 multijet newbie
What is the problem?
Hi Rayc a couple f weeks ago I had the motor booked in for a MOT ( thought I was doing a good job getting it sorted ready for the road ) anyway to cut a long story short I drove it on the Sunday no problem prior to the Monday MOT.
Early on the Monday it was wet then freezing weather and I tried to start the motor and flattened the battery, put the battery on charge and tried later that day again no go. Phoned a mobile mechanic who did a dio test and it read timing sensors out of sink and low fuel pump pressure, cleared faults tried to start again and sensors cam back. Mechanic said crank sensor is usually faulty so it was changed. still no start, so said timing belt must have slipped so ordered new kit setup timing and tried again with out altenator back on etc as it should have tried to fire but it didn't. So motor is still on our drive a no go.
Early on the Monday it was wet then freezing weather and I tried to start the motor and flattened the battery, put the battery on charge and tried later that day again no go. Phoned a mobile mechanic who did a dio test and it read timing sensors out of sink and low fuel pump pressure, cleared faults tried to start again and sensors cam back. Mechanic said crank sensor is usually faulty so it was changed. still no start, so said timing belt must have slipped so ordered new kit setup timing and tried again with out altenator back on etc as it should have tried to fire but it didn't. So motor is still on our drive a no go.
Has the low fuel pressure fault cleared or is it still there? I had a similar problem with a chip tuning box which took the pressure outside the expected parameters and it would not start.
Rayc the low fuel pressure cleared the first time, mechanic did timing belt and timing. I took a video of the engine turning over and there is no firing or attempt to fire. The mechanic is now talking about possible valves bent, could this happen just turning the car over one minute no problems the motor was ok and started first time always, and then now a none starter and supposedly bent valves.
I had the timing belt slip on a passat (on christmas day
) because water had frozen on the crank pulley filling up the teeth.The ecu has no awareness of the state of the valves so _if_ there are no errors and it is making sufficient pressure it should be injecting it might not run obviously.
Earth strap is a common issue on the x250. Bad earth will cause all sort of issues and phantom error codes. You can add couple of jumper cables as temporary earths to check that possibility.
Eliminating the obvious:
When you turn the key to MAR the immobiliser light coming on properly then turns off?
When you turn the key to MAR you can hear the lift pump running in the tank?
When cranking the engine turns over quickly 200+ rpm
If pressure is low when cranking it wont inject. Check rail pressure when cranking.
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Hi, back to basics..,
it ran fine the day before, and cranked on MOT day,
did it sound odd at all,
when they started to change the belt kit..was the timing out..?? - if not then no chance of damage if timing was out then 95% chance of damage
the low rail pressure is because you'd flattened the battery,
it relies on cranking Rev's to get up to the required HIGH pressures.
IF you'd not slipped the timing - it'll be a sensor not working / sending info to ECU correctly,
as suggested - worth using a jump lead as a battery to engine additional earth then try cranking again.
where are you / the van based..??
Charlie - Oxford
Hi guys thanks for your comments and advise it really appreciated.
The mechanic didn't check how far if the timing was out, which I was a bit peeved off with but set everything up after putting the belt on. He even tried to reset it any other way he could with the pins. As for the pressure on the pump I took it that with the loss of speed turning the engine over this was the drop in pressure so jumped the motor from the engine not directly from the battery as I had heard the problem regarding the earth strap.
The engine seems to turn over quickly but does not seem to have the much compression I have taken a video if you have an e-mail address I could send it to take a look and advise.
I have contacted various garages up here in Aberdeen but all I get is that they will look at it if I get it uplifted to them but been told its a very expensive fix and cant price it even roughly for me.
The motorhome has only done 16K and 3K of that is since I bought it six months ago.
could anyone give me a step by step check list so I can check or even advise on how to do a copession check.
Thanks K
The mechanic didn't check how far if the timing was out, which I was a bit peeved off with but set everything up after putting the belt on. He even tried to reset it any other way he could with the pins. As for the pressure on the pump I took it that with the loss of speed turning the engine over this was the drop in pressure so jumped the motor from the engine not directly from the battery as I had heard the problem regarding the earth strap.
The engine seems to turn over quickly but does not seem to have the much compression I have taken a video if you have an e-mail address I could send it to take a look and advise.
I have contacted various garages up here in Aberdeen but all I get is that they will look at it if I get it uplifted to them but been told its a very expensive fix and cant price it even roughly for me.
The motorhome has only done 16K and 3K of that is since I bought it six months ago.
could anyone give me a step by step check list so I can check or even advise on how to do a copession check.
Thanks K
Hi, back to basics..,
it ran fine the day before, and cranked on MOT day,
did it sound odd at all,
when they started to change the belt kit..was the timing out..?? - if not then no chance of damage if timing was out then 95% chance of damage
the low rail pressure is because you'd flattened the battery,
it relies on cranking Rev's to get up to the required HIGH pressures.
IF you'd not slipped the timing - it'll be a sensor not working / sending info to ECU correctly,
as suggested - worth using a jump lead as a battery to engine additional earth then try cranking again.
where are you / the van based..??
Charlie - Oxford
This is the best advice. Highly unlikely to have been the timing belt or anything mechanical, most likely bad earth etc.
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Hello Danny
Sorry to hear about your multijet troubles.
Before you start going down the compression testing route it sounds like the engine was running fine until you tried taking it for the MOT so I would doubt any major piston ring problems since then.
When you tried starting it before the mot did it sound pretty normal or any strange mechanical type cranking noises? There is an issue as corcai rightly highlights with timing belts jumping due to water freezing in the castellations of the crankshaft timing pulley and another with auxiliary belts shredding and getting down the side of the timing belt. Have a look at http://www.wildcamping.co.uk/forums/motorhome-questions/13768-fiat-ducato-winter-woes.html but be heartened by the fact that the weather has to be really cold for an extended period following heavy rain to exacerbate the problem.
I know it isn't much consolation but your mobile mechanic man should have noticed if this damage had taken place due to the freezing weather and anyway should have felt something when he turned the engine over manually after refitting the new belt.
If you are confident technically to tackle diagnose what has happened then you may have to prove the jumped timing belt theory with your mobile chappie and get him to resolve it whatever is required BUT before you go down that route don't crank the engine until you have double checked the current timing and 'felt' what the engine feels like when turning it over manually with a socket on the crankshaft pulley nut.
Good luck and let's hope it's something simple before you get involved with major surgery.
Have you a fuel inertia switch behind the battery that needs resetting on your motor home?
Sorry to hear about your multijet troubles.
Before you start going down the compression testing route it sounds like the engine was running fine until you tried taking it for the MOT so I would doubt any major piston ring problems since then.
When you tried starting it before the mot did it sound pretty normal or any strange mechanical type cranking noises? There is an issue as corcai rightly highlights with timing belts jumping due to water freezing in the castellations of the crankshaft timing pulley and another with auxiliary belts shredding and getting down the side of the timing belt. Have a look at http://www.wildcamping.co.uk/forums/motorhome-questions/13768-fiat-ducato-winter-woes.html but be heartened by the fact that the weather has to be really cold for an extended period following heavy rain to exacerbate the problem.
I know it isn't much consolation but your mobile mechanic man should have noticed if this damage had taken place due to the freezing weather and anyway should have felt something when he turned the engine over manually after refitting the new belt.
If you are confident technically to tackle diagnose what has happened then you may have to prove the jumped timing belt theory with your mobile chappie and get him to resolve it whatever is required BUT before you go down that route don't crank the engine until you have double checked the current timing and 'felt' what the engine feels like when turning it over manually with a socket on the crankshaft pulley nut.
Good luck and let's hope it's something simple before you get involved with major surgery.
Have you a fuel inertia switch behind the battery that needs resetting on your motor home?
I'd have checked the timing by aligning everything BEFORE attempting a belt change.. unfortunately this is NOT helpful now for diagnosis
:bang:surely if the tank lift pump is DEAD / Immobilised you'd NOT see a decent rail pressure now..??
I'd be tempted to keep well away form the guy that's tinkered so far,
before doing anything TOO drastic, :idea:
can you get the valve clearances checked.. this could speak volumes about the state of the valvegear..
obviously anything too far out will need further investigation..,
Charlie
Hi guys thanks for the comments, I will try various suggestions and then get back to the forum.
One question if the belt had slipped a couple of teeth would the belt no be visually damaged, there was brown water marks on the belt and the belt plastic cover and engine area where the cover is placed.
Ta K
One question if the belt had slipped a couple of teeth would the belt no be visually damaged, there was brown water marks on the belt and the belt plastic cover and engine area where the cover is placed.
Ta K
Hi Dunny as someone has already said make sure your low pressure pump is working in the tank, if you lift mat between the seats there is a cover which you can take off and below is the diesel tank with pump connections etc
Can then be checked to see if running. I had a similar problem last year ended up coming home on a transporter RAC mechanics etc etc all had lots of sugestions sensors body computer timing belt etc but no fuel being sent to the high pressure pump no start!! took me ages to find that the wiring to the pump had failed see previous post of mine. Hope this helps
Regards mike
Can then be checked to see if running. I had a similar problem last year ended up coming home on a transporter RAC mechanics etc etc all had lots of sugestions sensors body computer timing belt etc but no fuel being sent to the high pressure pump no start!! took me ages to find that the wiring to the pump had failed see previous post of mine. Hope this helps
Regards mike
Newbie to Moho too, stepped up from a Campervan.
I joined this group to find out how many have hassles with the indicator/dip switch. I find when I'm dipping the lights I get the indicators coming on if I'm not very careful :-/
Re the timing belt/starting problem, if valves are damaged I'd think the noise when trying to turn the engine would be horrendous.
We had a belt loose all its teeth on a VW Polo. Youngest one thought he should be going into 1st gear when approaching red traffic lights and car was still doing 30mph!
Valves were OK, we were lucky.
Do you have a diesel heater?
I joined this group to find out how many have hassles with the indicator/dip switch. I find when I'm dipping the lights I get the indicators coming on if I'm not very careful :-/
Re the timing belt/starting problem, if valves are damaged I'd think the noise when trying to turn the engine would be horrendous.
We had a belt loose all its teeth on a VW Polo. Youngest one thought he should be going into 1st gear when approaching red traffic lights and car was still doing 30mph!
Valves were OK, we were lucky.
Do you have a diesel heater?
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This is because it has the lane change system which just requires a light touch up or down to make the indicators flash 5 times.
Yup, figured that, but the spring stopping accidental operation must be very light.
Our Seat (VW switchgear) has the same arrangement and when we first got it we had some (maybe more) accidental operations. Now we've had it a few years it never happens.
The Moho hardly goes out in the dark �� so getting used to it is taking a while��
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