Can anybody tell me why the heck my passenger front bslljoint keeps popping out despite pinch bolt being tight and 3 New wishbones in 3 months???

First time had mechanic replace wishbones to stop knocking.

Popped out few weeks later so recovery guys took it away, replaced the already new wishbone with another new one then cut sliver out of split in hub to be sure of tight fit.

Few weeks later...ie last night comes out again almost caused serious crash!

Does this sound like hub itself is worn?

3 different new wishbones been fitted so not a brand issue 're part.

It's popped out when driving with pinch bolt still in.

How the heck can it get past the pinch bolt???

I have it apart now and balljoint looks ok. But do notice that if you line up grroves and insert pinch bolt, balljoint still wants to slip up few mm even though bolt is inserted.

Any help dearly appreciated.

How come you have replaced wishbone 3 times, the part should have some warranty if new and the balljoints are usually on the drive shaft, please specify which balljoint is popping out.

If its the drive shafts ball joint then id check the shaft to see if bent or warped.

I assume you're talking about the bottom ball joint, on the outer end of the bottom wishbone (i.e. control arm) here.

Have you used a new pinch bolt? If you've had the same problem with three different wishbones, I think it's safe to say that the fault doesn't lay with the wishbone.

Yes bottom balljoint.

Phoned mechanics 're the issue. Didnt want to know saying their work is 100%.

I didn't buy the wishbones. Normally I do most of our maintenance but my wife was in a hurry as I was too busy due to working long hours so she left into 3 different mechanics as every time she picked it up there was various knocking on the drive home.

Thank goodness drive shaft is ok(was pulled out). Just needs a new seal.

This is the first time I've stripped to inspect myself (today) rather than it being left to mechanic...

I'm convinced the hole on hub where balljoint pinches in is worn. It couldn't be anything else.

I always use new pinch bolts but I wouldn't be surprised if mechanics didn't.

If you can push the stub of the ball joint into the tapered socket in the bottom of the hub such that the scallop in the stub (for the bolt to pass) goes past the bolt hole in the hub, then the split joint in the hub may have spread. The sides of the 'split' should be parallel when the pinch bolt is removed. That said, even if it had spread, tightening the pinch bolt should pull it back to shape, so unless one side of the split joint has physically come away from the hub, I can't see how it would allow the wishbone to come free, unless there is monumental wear in the taper. That would be easy to see/feel.

If the pinch bolt has stretched, it will waist. That may allow enough room for the ball joint stub to pull free. The integrity of that pinch bolt is vital to the front suspension, so I always replace it. Some of the cheaper wishbones I've bought (see my thread on the subject) aren't supplied with a pinch bolt, so it can get, ahem, 'overlooked'. When the wishbone has pulled free, has the pinch bolt remained in place?

As you have the car and components there, you need to inspect them to diagnose the fault. Contributors on here can't see the problem.

The ball joint is held in by the pinch bolt locating in a groove in the joint shaft. If it is letting go, either the bolt is worn, which should be visible, or the hub is worn.

From new, until the first replacement, there should have been no movement of the joint within the hub, unless the bolt came loose. If the original bolt was reused, any wear could have resulted in movement, excess wear, and it being released.

Even without the pinch bolt, the joint should be quite snug in the hub. Cutting the split wider is a real bodge and will never work well, as the hub is not meant to flex further.

Trial fit the new joint into the hub. If it is not snug, you need a replacement hub.

Use a new bolt. Get it from the Fiat dealer. It needs to be grade 10 (should be on the bolt head). Standard bolts are usually 8.8 and not good enough.

Thank you for all your advice.

I'm not convinced by this hub so have taken 2 days off to sort.

Picked up a very good hub today, New wishbone and new bolts and hub nuts from fiat. I am going over everything with fine tooth comb. It's already obvious I have paid money in my wife's behalf for v. Litlle work to be done. If anybody knows torque for big hub nuts please advise.

Torque for the front hub nut (M22) is 240Nm (177lbft). Time to get the scaffold pole out....

What make wishbone did you buy? If it's a Birth, you may have fun getting the bolt holes to line up with the ones in the subframe.

OMG...have both hubs on bench. Old one the wishbone slips in and out with no effort in it even with pinch bolt fully inserted. With pinch bolt tightened still movement up and down. Hub doesn't actually seem to tighten much.

New (salvage hub)...even old balljoint is much snugger fit and when pinch bolt inserted doesn't budge...that's before even tightening the bolt.

So that's it. Job done. The amount of times this was left to mechanics to sort this and the issue being so obvious to an amateur like me is a disgrace (and they had hub off each time on bench as well...so they say).

It needed some other work so I've put new struts, strut bearings and mounts, inner tie rods and track rod ends both sides.

Wishbone is Lemforder. That's all I could get locally but it seems beefier than the one I've pulled out.

Another note....no, they haven't replaced with proper pinch bolts. They are 8.8 high tensile bolts but the non threaded bit is much shorter so the joint has also been hammering away at the threaded bit that's pinched. The fiat bolts are certainly much better fit.

Thanks for torque on hub nuts. My big torque wrench goes to 300nm so that should do it.

I do notice the hub nuts I pulled of off have a little metal lip that hammers inwards to avoid loosening but the new ones have nothing like this. Asked the fiat parts guy about this when he handed them to me and he said they are all the same ie no metal lips etc just straight but as such? I assume a touch of threadlock would be desirable?

Anyway thanks for all the help. I was panicking as had never ever encountered this and had been repeatedly told by mechanics and recovery guys that all was fine despite the fact it kept bloody coming out!

Still can't believe they couldn't diagnose this...I just drive Land Rover Defenders which I am hapoy to strip and rebuild all day long so every time my wife buys a new car it's a learning curve as I find them so much more complex and fiddly to work on!

Well it might have been more by luck than judgement, but Lemforder are the wishbones to get. So that's a win. Nice to hear that you've gone the whole hog and done the struts and top bearings as well.

I'm not surprised by your tales of woe relating to 'mechanics'. Many just do the job they're asked to do and look no further. Quickest time in and out to get the invoice posted. I've experienced the same. Generally, I find the Multi isn't a bad car to work on, though there are one or two jobs that are a pig. Hardly surprising in such a tightly packaged car. It's way better to work on than my wife's old Mk2 Scenic. I rejoiced when we got rid of that thing.

Are the Fiat bolts marked up as 8.8? I'm pretty sure that they're special bolts with unthreaded shank length tailored to suit the application. The bolt heads have substantial captive washers on some I've seen, especially the two that clamp the bottom of the struts, but they often get replaced with bog standard items. Corners get cut.

If you get a chance, it would be good to see a photo or two of the bottom end of the damaged hub upright.

The hub nuts should have a collar around them to stake into the grooves in the stub axle. The ones sold by J&R on ebay are cheap and quite good; they have the collar and a captive washer that makes them less prone to seizing

No the fiat bolts aren't. They are altogether beefier. Although I couldn't belive the bill from fiat today for a handful of bolts and 2 hub nuts....£48!!!

I will take a photo. As soon as I had old and new hub on bench first thing I did was try old and new balljoints in each...it was so glaringly obvious the hub was very worn...God knows what it was like before they cut a bit out...although whoever said that was complete bodge is correct as the old hub doesn't even have a gap...its permanently closed!

I wondered regards the hub nut. Guy at fiat insisted the ones he gave me are the only ones yet they have no 'tag' to prevent loosening?

My wife insisted on a scenic at one time too. It also broke my heart. Although have to say she had a mk1 multipla too and although always drove well, was constantly in need of suspension bits and mounts. This one very much seems similar. Although have to confess...for a car they are a great thing to drive, especially long distance with kids.

But I'm a land rover man myself. That's all I drive normally...but do find myself sneaking away in the multipla more and more often.

Oh forgot to mention...just a note...101 breakers , mechanics etc insisted my later model was a different hub to older 1.9 diesels. This is wrong...exactly the same hub mk1 or 2 diesels. Just in case anybody else is ever in need of replacement. Breakers all wanted bigger money for later model hubs and I was taken in by this until finally had the wit to ask fiat who cinfirmed they are identical...lots and lots of breakers are either mistaken or dishonest...one or the other.

Just did the bearings since everything else is off...quite a handy job with the press actually.

Apologies for spelling...smartphone predictive text!

Just wanted to confirm... The torque for the front hub nut is definitely 240nm for mk2 multipla diesel?

Just about have it altogether...bit of a marathon looking forward to getting back to work for a rest!!!

The 240Nm for an M22 hub nut is from the Haynes manual for a Bravo, which is about as close as we Multipla owners are going to get. eLEARN just gives some gibberish & symbols that's very difficult to make sense of (I recall something about 70Nm + 55 degrees). Some other Fiats have M24 nuts and for those it's 280Nm.

The suspension parts are very closely related to the Bravo/Bravo. I'm afraid I can't advise as to whether the squarenose Multipla is any different - I don't go near the ugly ones

The Haynes manual says to stake the collar on the nuts, by the way.

Ha..Yes..well said.

Just thought I'd confirm. Wasn't second guessing you at all.

You know...someone had cut a slither out of old ones and that's were I'm getting confused. The collar is quite thick...maybe they couldn't manage to hammer an indent in?

Ah well....240 it is then.

Done some amount of work here. Basically all new front, driplinks, arb bushes, struts, strut mounts and bearings, wishbones, hub, abs sensor, hub nuts, track rod ends, inner tie rods.....and also full service, bearings, seals, New boot switch, new discs/pads, drivers calliper rebuilt, new rear shoes, new mirrors (old fasteners seized in solid...had been leaking water!), new wipers, new dipped beam bulbs, gearbox oil renewal...

Also pulled if that horrible creasing vynil sticky trim on outside of doors and sprayed with black truck bed liner...much better job.

Just getting last bits together as we speak...about 2 hours left...finishing with a new fiat carpet set.

Phew...sore hands now! Would like to have seen the bill they would have handed me for this lot. Well worth last 48hrs effort. It's torqing everything that gets a bit old!

Must be it sorted for a while!!!

widemouthfrog said:

<SNIP>
eLEARN just gives some gibberish & symbols that's very difficult to make sense of (I recall something about 70Nm + 55 degrees).
<SNIP>

Click to expand...

The torque plus angle method is quite common on highly loaded fastners. You tighten to the specified torque and then tighten further so the fastner (in practice the shaft of the spanner/wrench) moves through the number of degrees specified.
It is used because it allows the correct preload or bolt stretch to be acheived regardless of thread or mating surface friction.
You can buy a gauge (e.g https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/cht423-angular-torque-gauge/) or just mark the angle on a bit of card and use that.

Robert G8RPI.

Yes, I know the drill, but when you're having to give the thing what for to get high levels of torque on your driveway, the last thing you'll be able to keep an eye while you're busting a vein is a little card disc in the middle of the hub. On newly assembled bearings etc, I also find that the torque generated on first tightening is different to what you get if you have to free the thing off and then re-tighten for some reason.

It's all very nice in theory, but in practice, working on your own.......

I've got a Sealey STW291 digital torque adaptor which works well and caters for angle torque, but unfortunately doesn't go up to 240Nm.

I use them halfords pro torque wrenches. Have that trade card thingy which I use now and again if stuck. But to be fair local land rover specialists use them as do quite a few restoration enthusiasts I know and they all recommended them highly. Been battering them every week for must be 3 years now and they are perfect. Seem accurate too. The bigger one goes to 300. It torqued up the hub nuts half hour ago with no hassle. Plenty of leverage on it, no need to be looking for extensions etc. Did them up as easy as torqing anything else.

I use them non stop on my land rovers weekly and they have been faultless.

And to be fair my local store is great. I drive over my smaller 1/2 torque socket and they replaced it no quibble. Bust up a few other bits through misuse and they replaced no quibble every time. I bought almost all of their pro sockets, spanners etc and now have 2 complete 3 tier industrial tool chests and all have been great. I order all my other bits and specialist tools online these days as its so convenient and the prices are far better than local. Although I always try and buy decent stuff. Not too of the range as its wasted one me...But the cheap crap just lets you down every time.

I've come a long way considering only a few years back I took on very little of my own mechanical work. But the cars are a learning curve all the time!!!

Thanks again for all the help. Really saved my bacon. Must try to get some sort of manual for this car. Tried a few of them CD ones off eBay but not one works with my computers! Will get pic of that hub up asap. Keeping it as have contacted the guys who did the work on this to advise that I would not be letting it go...Have receipts with work listed and found a few things I was billed for replacements that weren't touched...found old parts still there...and that's before we even start about the hub business.

Think my wife's learnt a lesson too. Just wait and let me do the work. I take a while to do stuff. And always learning as I go on cars. But I always try to ensure I do everything correct and there's always a few other bits you spot whilst doing it.